and if he is alive they can threaten his life if he doesnt admit to doing it. if he admits to it they don't need as much evidence.

How wide does this conspiracy need to be before you realize this might of actually happened? I haven't seen hard evidence either, but the jury will.

If it was a conspiracy, there wouldn't have been all these loose ends. They most certainly would have killed him.

The theories are evolving just as the story is, can't you see you want this to be a false flag and therefore can't think objectively?

[deleted]

THIS

it's important to play devil's advocate.

The thing is, I have seen a lot more than just asking questions, and raising ideas. There have been flat out accusations without actual proof.

you're not asking logical questions, though. you're creating wild pieces of ridiculous fiction and speculation because you can't accept the fact that the government isn't always chasing you in black helicopters.

Or....we just don't trust people who have been proven to frequently lie to protect their own positions of authority and various self interests.

But I guess Dan Rather must think he is being followed by black helicopters for actually reporting on the solid evidence that the FBI led on the 1993 WTC bombing case, and allowed it to happen

FBI incompetence != they purposefully let it happen.

Because the event happened != The FBI was just incompetent and overlooked it

If you are so sure it was incompetence, who was held accountable pray tell?

[deleted]

Exactly. Everyone who joined the FBI to fight crime and protect the USA just didnt give a damn because they had better things to do back then. Makes sense.

[deleted]

I live in a world based in reality?

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This is why conspiracy junkies get no mainstream attention. I could prove that the earth revoles around the sun, but that won't be enough for you.

How about: Every person working in the FBI is a secret sleeper agent (who of course lives and grew up in the USA but secretly hates it) and for some reason wants to see the place they've grown up all their life go to hell?

Smoke weed erey day....

[deleted]

Not sure if you have been paying attention but..."The attack was planned by a group of conspirators including Ramzi Yousef, Mahmud Abouhalima, Mohammad Salameh, Nidal A. Ayyad, Abdul Rahman Yasin and Ahmad Ajaj. They received financing from Khaled Sheikh Mohammed, Yousef's uncle."

FBI incompetence (like we are seeing again with the douchers in Boston), excess government bloat and slowness doesn't mean in any what whatsoever they somehow "let it happen." That is idiotic because it won't help the FBI in any way, it only makes them look worse and therefore should have MORE government oversight to make sure they are doing their jobs properly.

[deleted]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_World_Trade_Center_bombing

There are 38 footnotes to additional sources on that page.

[deleted]

Luckily the burden isn't on me to disprove every nonsense theory, it is actually the opposite....

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

The burden of proof lies with someone who is making a claim, and is not upon anyone else to disprove. The inability, or disinclination, to disprove a claim does not render that claim valid, nor give it any credence whatsoever. However it is important to note that we can never be certain of anything, and so we must assign value to any claim based on the available evidence, and to dismiss something on the basis that it hasn't been proven beyond all doubt is also fallacious reasoning.

[deleted]

Then we agree. Nonsense theories are just that: total crap until they have been accurately vetted.

[deleted]

The thing is....the mainstream view isn't theory, it is a fact. All of the nonsense are still 'theories', since they haven't met any burden of proof to be accepted by anyone except the small fringe who ignore fact and reality.

[deleted]

http://goo.gl/V7bh7

[deleted]

Those were believed to be true at one time yes. Since no one has produced enough evidence that any nonsense conspiracy theories are true, enough that the mainstream population (aka majority) believes them, well....they're going to stay just that. Idiotic theories.

[deleted]

And there it is....the non rebuttal. I guess that ends this debate.

There will always be holes in any kind of conspiracy or plan because humans are not perfect! They make mistakes.

And the expression is "might have", not "might of". If you couldn't get a stupid expression right, how do you expect a complex false flag event to go without mistakes?

This isn't a conspiracy. It's a catastrophic fuck-up of an operation. It has loose ends because the entire event took place as damage control.

If you're expecting a smoking gun on a target and you find it's not there after you've pulled the trigger, you're in trouble. Death penalty kind of trouble. Assuming you don't want to die you will do whatever you can to 'fix' it.

If this looks like anything it is the desperate attempt to scramble resources and affirmations to support a narrative which could not be proven. The missteps along the way are what happened when the two people they picked did not go quietly into that good night. No one in their right mind would ever intentionally contrive this series of events as a conspiracy.

I think Dzhokhar was the fuckup - he was not meant to be there - for some reason he went along and then they had to adapt him into the narrative - any fool can see the guy did not go dressed to the event to plant a bomb (face clearly visible etc) and then he behaved as normal for at least 24-36 hours after the event. By him being there this whole thing has blown open and exposed a whole heap of shit that is way too messy to cleanup. Maybe he unwittingly did the people a favour but what price will he pay.

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He did not not reveal the information. It was provided by the Chinese owner of the white Mercedes SUV who is the key witness of the prosecution. The Chinese man, who escaped when the armed Tamerlan went inside to pay for gas at a gas station, told authorities and the media that when the brothers carjacked him they confessed all their crimes and told him they were heading for New York.

EDIT:

Yes, that's actually what they went with. I couldn't make this stuff up if I wanted to.

I can't believe people are eating it up. I mean if these two were supposedly targeting NYC next, why in the world would they hang around in a city for 2-3 days whre 100s, if not 1000s, of armed officers with military grade weapons were looking for you?

right now it's all just "words on the internet" "You really think someone would do that?.jpeg"

I thought he CAN'T talk because of his throat injury, which is also questionable.

Or the reason they didn't kill him was so they can get some answers as to why he did what he did and try him in court for his crimes.

Granted, but you are going to be hard pressed to find an impartial jury now that the media shitstorm is in full swing.

edit: I humbly request an explanation for the downvotes. Because after the last week or so there is no way you are going to easily find someone who hasn't already decided if he is guilty/innocent in their minds.

The trial is a factor but not the only factor. There won't be a trial with the Sandy Hook case yet the public won't be seeing officially released evidence any time soon, if ever.

You need to only look as far as this sub to see there is a large number of conspiracy theorists who believe Sandy Hook was a false flag and as such there has been a fair amount of demand for that kind of evidence. It is particularly acute in that case, because Sandy Hook initiated the biggest push for gun control legislation in recent history, which is a sensitive point for around half the country, which personally owns a gun.

I agree with others; the cleanest way out of this for people executing a conspiracy theory would have been to also kill Dzhokhar, which would have been easy to accomplish during the `firefight' in the boat. Or, if I was conspiring and had to choose one brother to keep alive for some reason, no way would I have chosen Dzhokhar of the two brothers. The kid is obviously much more sympathetic than his brother - Tamerlan would have been the far better pick to put on trial as a 'scary Muslim.' Why in the world would you intentionally frame a 19 year old kid who seems normal, who isn't an Arab Muslim, who is a well integrated American citizen with lots of friends?

To remind everyone that that kid who doesn't like the government, the one who seems normal -- if a bit maladjusted, the one with the unkempt beard, the one that is that union, the one that likes to tell you why you should be concerned, is dangerous.

Don't be worried about muslims. Worry about your neighbor. Everyone is a suspect now.

Sure, it starts as just talk, but you can learn all sorts of scary things on the internet. When someone says revolution isn't that just code for terrorism?

Now they can get a "reason" as to why they done it and go invade some other countries or some shit.

Or, CISPA.

[deleted]

If you hate this sub you can leave it. if you're farming downvotes it's working wonders.

[deleted]

Well, its being shaped for sure

Whether he goes to trial or not, the evidence will ultimately be available when his case is closed. But, by capturing and formally indicting him, now the US prosecutors are opening themselves to disbarment and criminal penalties if the evidence they attested to in their affidavits does not, in fact, exist. It thus seems like taking him alive would be a horribly short-sighted strategy if their goal was to protect the conspiracy or themselves or even just prevent the evidence from eventually being available; it would have been much easier and safer to kill him and claim the extant evidence was implicating individuals still at large. Moreover, the entire narrative that has emerged about the brother's acting alone completely undermines their ability to suppress the evidence's release beyond Dzhokhar's case. I can't see anything consistent here with a planned cover-up, honestly.

It looks like the authorities tried their best to kill him, he had no injuries when he came from the boat, the arrest photo clearly shows he had been punched in the face, by the time he reached the hospital someone had put a gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger. The doctors had to fight to save his life.

Now they are busily saying he was going to blow up everything from the empire state to Disney land, and he is apparently saying yes to everything. Also since when is a bomb that kills less people than a car crash called a weapon of mass destruction? So when the gvt said they couldn't find any wmds in Iraq does this mean they had nothing that could even compare to a pressure cooker bomb?

There is no support for any of the factual assertions in your first paragraph. On top of that, the testimony of the guy who discovered him in the boat completely contradicts them.

The dude who found him in the boat said he looked inside his boat and saw a lot of blood on the ground.... This was after he had denied certain more trivial parts of his story so it's not like he was fed a script to follow if that's what you were going to say

[deleted]

Oh shut it already!

I'm curious why you're so eager to believe that your own government intelligence agencies are so incompetent they were unable to prevent a man from launching an attack while watching him, identify him after the attack or even locate him. An untrained civilian with knowledge from a magazine, no support, no resources, nothing. And the only reason they caught him was because a drugged-up post op victim identified the man wearing a baseball cap and sunglasses as 'making eye contact' while planting the device.

That's what you want to believe, is it? That these multi-billion dollar agencies are so fucking awful doing their job they couldn't catch a pair of pissed off kids who didn't even wear disguises while planting bombs at a massively documented public event.

I'm not an expert in the field of intelligence. I've never been formally trained. But even I could tell you, right now, off the top of my head, how to run a better investigation. Checking cell phone records made to the nearby tower, analyzing flagged risks, tracking all persons wearing backpacks that at on point intersected with the center of the blasts, evaluating my local field office roster for potential risks.

It may seem like a conspiracy to you. It seems like one to me that anyone could willfully believe that veteran intelligence experts could be so shitty at their jobs that they universally forgot their own SOP.

Who says they weren't doing all those things? You are oversimplifying things based on the faulty assertion that the entire investigation stemmed from Bauman's account, but that's not true at all. Bauman's account helped confirm key details about one of the bombers (only that he had a bag at first, and then later that he had sun glasses and a dark baseball cap) but it was hardly the entirety of the effort.

Real life isn't some episode of 24 where investigators can just think of some evidentiary request and there is a computer program that will automatically gather and compile it and then provide an easy-to-follow graphical representation of the relevant information. Bauman gave his account of a guy with a bag the day of the attack. By the next day, he was able to offer a more detailed analysis. I'm sure the investigators had pretty much narrowed it down by that point and were still trying to see if they could figure out the identity of the two individuals on their own before making a public announcement. When they failed to make the ID, they went public with it.

It's easy to say that they are all incompetent and should have done a better job, etc. etc. But these are agencies operating in a country of 311,000,000+ million people. Whether you believe it or not, they are limited in how they can track those individuals by both their limited resources and the law. And people at the FBI are prone to error, just like everyone else.

Frankly, the US is lucky that most ideological terrorists are fairly incompetent and screw up along the way to get themselves caught. The ones that are reasonably intelligent, like KSM, can do major damage. The government is not at all good at tracking, sharing, and compiling information on individuals and probably won't be in our lifetimes.

Who says they weren't doing all those things? You are oversimplifying things based on the faulty assertion that the entire investigation stemmed from Bauman's account, but that's not true at all. Bauman's account helped confirm key details about one of the bombers (only that he had a bag at first, and then later that he had sun glasses and a dark baseball cap) but it was hardly the entirety of the effort.

The part where it took more than 48 hours to identify the suspects that ended with a public broadcast of their faces. This might've been relevant if tehy were in hiding but we know from witness accounts that wasn't the case. They weren't hiding from anyone.

According to the FBI's statement to the Washington Post, Bauman's account was the first confirmation they actually had. Ironically this comes after announcing they had been sitting on the identity of the suspects, who weren't hiding, for a day. They took the photos to the White House but not to ask for permission. Obama personally commented and said, "These are the suspects? Before you show these to anyone you better be sure." - No authorization was given or requested to publicly display the photographs.

Following this event the grainy images of the Tsarnaev brothers were released to the general public. Another day passed and they eluded capture while the FBI was actively seeking them. Following that, Bauman saw them on TV from his hospital bed and pointed to identify. He clarified the identity of suspect #1 at that time.

Real life isn't some episode of 24 where investigators can just think of some evidentiary request and there is a computer program that will automatically gather and compile it and then provide an easy-to-follow graphical representation of the relevant information.

In 2002 I was introduced to the NSA Carnivore system by a member of the NSA. It was at the time and remains to date one of the most advanced database systems I've ever known. It interlinks the various agencies and can rapidly cross reference data and tags established by analysts. The sheer volume of information available to it to reference is difficult to put into words. The system was designed to build data transaction timelines of all priority individuals that covered of interest. Or those not even yet known of interest.

No, real life isn't an episode of 24. Calls trace instantly, GPS is always on, I have access to a program that can cross reference purchases and accounts for all known service providers of my suspects. In fact right as it stands right now every IM, every e-mail, etc, is being stored in the data transaction warehouse the NSA system. If they want to know something about someone, they will know. In fact they can go as far as guessing what you finally got your rocks off to when you were jacking off.

I realize you may not know this, so I remain patient with you in this dialogue.

Bauman gave his account of a guy with a bag the day of the attack. By the next day, he was able to offer a more detailed analysis. I'm sure the investigators had pretty much narrowed it down by that point and were still trying to see if they could figure out the identity of the two individuals on their own before making a public announcement. When they failed to make the ID, they went public with it. It's easy to say that they are all incompetent and should have done a better job, etc. etc. But these are a

Bauman did not provide his account of the individuals until Thursday, after the information had been released to the public. The statement clearly noted that he had observed the suspect images on the television in his room before making the identification.

Conversely Mrs. Tsarnaev contradicts the narrative timeline by stating that she was contacted on Tuesday by the FBI. This is rather glaring disagreement of your presentation of facts on behalf of the official narrative which can be easily proven with a record of calls to Mrs. Tsarnaev's phone.

It's easy to say that they are all incompetent and should have done a better job, etc. etc. But these are agencies operating in a country of 311,000,000+ million people. Whether you believe it or not, they are limited in how they can track those individuals by both their limited resources and the law. And people at the FBI are prone to error, just like everyone else.

On the contrary, it's not easy to say they're incompetent. I've had the pleasure of getting to know some of the men and women in our intelligence agencies on good terms. The persons I've known in the NSA, DOJ and DHS were all sharp, professional and effective. I've never personally known an FBI agent but one does not simply bumble into becoming one and I know this. I respect it with the sincerity it deserves.

That is part of why I know that it is incredibly unlikely they fumbling in the dark in violation of their own SOP with the entire nation watching. The whole reason the SOP exists is so that while they're overseeing a country of 311,000,000 people, they can focus easily on the most likely 1,000.

The limitations on their resources exist for passive tracking of persons who aren't POIs. The moment one is a POI and on a joint watchlist, the resources dedicated goes up several orders of magnitude. That's the point of having the watch list. That's how it works.

Frankly, the US is lucky that most ideological terrorists are fairly incompetent and screw up along the way to get themselves caught. The ones that are reasonably intelligent, like KSM, can do major damage. The government is not at all good at tracking, sharing, and compiling information on individuals and probably won't be in our lifetimes.

Organized terrorism is actually not at all that incompetent. Given their lack of resources they often make incredibly efficient use of whatever is available. The reason the organizations are so prevalent in other parts of the world is because they are, surprise, not that stupid. They may be insane, misguided and evil, but they aren't stupid. And if you really want to get into that the reason they aren't stupid is our doing; we made a great number of them into what they are starting with Kuwait back in the 1950s.

The government is actually rather fantastic as sharing, tracking and compiling information on PERSONS OF INTEREST. To the degree that if you're on the wanted list the only way you can avoid it is to actively work at it. And while I know you may find this hard to believe, someone on the terrorist watch list local to the regime with a warning flag raised by multiple foreign intelligence queries hiding at his apartment after a terrorist attack is not, in fact, succeeding at hiding.

If it helps, think of Batman. He doesn't really keep track of all Gotham but he sure as fuck knows the Joker or some other super villain is involved. Why? because he keeps tabs on them and makes a point to study their patterns.

It remains very clear to me that you are misinformed on the capabilities of the United States intelligence agencies, their SOP for identifying suspects and why these events which transpired are outrageous. That is why I am patiently trying to inform you.

How wide does this conspiracy need to be before you realize this might of actually happened? I haven't seen hard evidence either, but the jury will.

If it was a conspiracy, there wouldn't have been all these loose ends. They most certainly would have killed him.

The theories are evolving just as the story is, can't you see you want this to be a false flag and therefore can't think objectively?

Exactly. Everyone who joined the FBI to fight crime and protect the USA just didnt give a damn because they had better things to do back then. Makes sense.

The thing is....the mainstream view isn't theory, it is a fact. All of the nonsense are still 'theories', since they haven't met any burden of proof to be accepted by anyone except the small fringe who ignore fact and reality.