If they are 'smart' appliances, then yes. If the home is hooked up to a 'smart' meter, then yes. There's even a way to detect everything you [physically] do in your home using nothing but Wi-Fi.

using nothing but Wi-Fi.

SCARE TACTIC ! You shouldn't post comments like this without also stating that UW had to reprogram the router to be able to do this. And they had to program each individual movement, and still cannot detect movements small like hand and finger movements. Wifi routers straight out of the box cannot do this. This article goes more indepth

Whose to say that the smart meters don't have this type of capability? They use wifi for those. Routing the wifi signal disturbances back to some main hub which interprets the data and maps out the homes and who is in them.

Not a scare tactic. It would be easy to stick a router on the side of a house without the occupants knowing about it.

Maybe someone who never leaves their house, but some of us would notice a router stuck to our houses. Are you really that stupid or lazy?

So, you're resorting to ad hominem now?

What are you talking about, do you even know what that means? Yes I stated you might be lazy because your statement screamed of lazy stupidity, almost like you only saw highlights of the thread and tried to throw your two cents in. But before hand I did prove your idea as stupid because anyone would see a strange box attached to their house.

So where is this attack only on your instead of your argument again? Please inform me. I attacked both, your argument first, then you for even posting so stupid of a comment. It didn't even match the thread.

using nothing but Wi-Fi.

SCARE TACTIC ! You shouldn't post comments like this without also stating that UW had to reprogram the router to be able to do this. And they had to program each individual movement, and still cannot detect movements small like hand and finger movements. Wifi routers straight out of the box cannot do this. This article goes more indepth[1]

Here you're telling me that I should include more information with my comment and you labeled my comment as a scare tactic. You make a good point that routers 'straight out of the box' can't do this, but that's irrelevant to the point in my opinion.

Then I responded with:

Not a scare tactic. It would be easy to stick a router on the side of a house without the occupants knowing about it.

To which you responded ( This is your proof to which you mention in a later thread ):

Maybe someone who never leaves their house, but some of us would notice a router stuck to our houses. Are you really that stupid or lazy?

I bolded the ad hominem argument. I responded by pointing it out:

So, you're resorting to ad hominem now?

And you responded with another ad hominem ( also bolded by me ):

What are you talking about, do you even know what that means?

Yes, I know what ad hominem means. Both examples are ad hominem because you implied I am lazy and/or stupid instead of attacking my argument.

But before hand I did prove your idea as stupid because anyone would see a strange box attached to their house.

The statement you made about the house proves nothing. Let's break it down into smaller parts...

But before hand I did prove your idea as stupid...

You didn't prove anything. You made a supposition earlier, not a statement of fact. You can't prove something true with an opinion.

because anyone would see a strange box attached to their house

While I agree a box on the side of the house might be quite visible in some circumstances, there are instances where said box could be hidden or disguised.

Are you dizzy yet?

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It is not just a matter of reprogramming the router to do something it is capable, like changing routing tables or firewall rules. It is something completely different to program a device to do something it is not intended or designed to do.

Wireless access points are designed to do some very simple tasks, negotiate a connection with a host, capture a wireless signal, encrypt it if desired, and pass along to the next device, or convert to a wired protocol then pass along. It is a simple dumb router with wireless protocols instead of just wired protocols. What they did at UW was to reprogram the device to actually interpret the signals instead of just passing them. This is not a designed function of the router and cannot be made so remotely.

If what you are saying was true then no wifi manufacturer would be able to stay in business. After all there are a lot more network security professionals that do not work for the government than there are that do.

[deleted]

Then prove me wrong, hack a router remotely and program it to sense gestures. Post the results here, I will be waiting.

[deleted]

I just spent about 20 minutes thinking of how this can be done. Here is what I have thought up.

• Can a wifi signal be used to detect movement and motion? Yes, but it is highly inefficient. A router is basically a high frequency radio transmitter (but on the same frequency range as microwaves). So think of this: radio can pass through walls, infrared cannot, microwaves, being in between the 2 are only hindered by walls (or various objects). Meaning that if you think that wifi will be acting as SONAR, then the objects being "scanned" will also be absorbing much of that signal contributing to false signals.

• This is also hindered by how the antennas work. They spread out everywhere, having a weak signal overall. The farther away you are the weaker it gets. But if you focus that (through a directional antenna or a reflector dish) it becomes stronger over distance but you are only looking at a certain point in space, blind to other areas. Then the antennas in the computer work generally the same way, taking in from where ever they can.

• But the biggest issue is the processing power of the router. Honestly, they don't have it. It's hard to find a home router in the $50-$75 range that can handle more than 5 or 6 wifi connections without lagging. It won't be able to give positive feedback on a person walking through a house. A separate computer would have to be used on site in order to create a map of the signal strength of the router and stay on site in order to get readings. Even then if you walked side by side to someone, creating a shadow in the signal, it would read you as one person.

So, in the end: Possible? Yes, with added hardware and under certain conditions. Plausible? No, more trouble than it's worth.

But on the other hand, mapping a house and tracking motion because someone has a phone with wifi capabilities and a router in the area is highly probable, because the signals can work together. BUT, another computer would most likely need to be within range of those wifi signals to be able to map and track it all.

Thank you, and what needs to be done cannot be done remotely.

My idiocy, read the post from rountrey and you will see who is idiotic.

Plus, why would the NSA take the time and effort to do this when they have all the info they need by connecting to your smartphone.

Kind of makes the scare tactics that much dumber doesn't it. The NSA are evil and do some shady shit but they are not stupid, and they have no desire to waste time and effort on some idiotic idea when they have better alternatives. If they want to know what you are doing that only take a smart phone or any pc with a mic and camera and they have everything they need to spy on you.

Really you all need to focus your energy on things that may actually be an issue not just attention grabbers that only succeed in scaring the layperson.

I am done wasting my time explaining something to people who have no clue and only want to scare people with fanatic ideas. Wake up, there are so many other issues you need to inform people of, this is a waste of time and effort, and I am done wasting both on this topic.

You are wrong and you have no ability to prove otherwise so you show your age by being derogatory instead of informative.

So you are telling me that I can pay $50 at Walmart and get a router that will take the place of my Kinect, damn please show me how.

This is not a designed function of the router and cannot be made so remotely.

No, your router can be reprogrammed remotely, and no hardware modifications were needed.

Prove it.

Dude, you are just fucking ignorant. Consumer-grade routers have crap security and google returns more than 13million search results on that topic.

Start with this www.channelregister.co.uk/2008/01/15/home_router_insecurity/‎

And suck my dick, shill.

So your proof is a 404 site, that shows your ignorance on how to use the internet, I hope your router skills are better.

Then you stoop to name calling, the first sign of defeat.

If you think passing lies like this is "anti-government" you are no better than they are, using scare tactics that have no basis.

Of all the things we can use our time to work against this is not the one, it is a lie and you have no clue what you are talking about.

So as I said before prove it or STFU.

But I do want to thank you for your comment, now I know what to think when I see any future comments from you, I will forever see a child screaming from his play pen because no one will pay them any attention.

I will throw you a passy next time I promise.

A smart meter cannot spy on you, yes it can tell which sockets are used and how much electricity from each socket, but it can not "spy" on people.

I think it's considered spying if a remote operator can tell when you're home or not and which appliances you're using ( based on electricity consumption ).

No, it is considered spying when you don't know about it, or what it entails.

We know exactly what these smart meters do, and how they are used. There is nothing secretive about it.

That does not constitute spying.

So, when the USSR knew we were flying U-2's over their airspace, it wasn't considered spying because they knew about it?

You know what they tell you to know. Assuming you have all the relevant information because you're told you have it is naive.

If we want to get pedantic, no, the definition says;

"the secret gathering of information on others"

Link

It's not a secret if you know you're being spied upon, but it is still spying.

To be considered spying, it requires intent to covertly gather information and lack of consent on the party being spied upon.

Which is exactly why using a smart meter is not spying.

Your electric consumption is not a secret in any way to the company.

You give them your consent to monitor your electric.

How in any way is that spying, by using a smart meter?

Because you don't know exactly what they're doing with that information. Of course we can assume they're using it to bill you, but there's more information that you can glean from watching electricity consumption. If you can tell which devices are being run at a given time, you can monitor activity taking place inside the residence. It's not as reliable or accurate as direct observation, but I think it's feasible. And since this data can subpoenaed without your knowledge, that makes it covert.

Imagine this hypothetical. The FBI suspects you of terrorism. They want to know EVERYTHING about your current activity, including your daily routine. They could get the data from your smart meter and determine when you woke up, cooked breakfast, left home, returned home, what you did when you got home, and when you went to sleep.

I just don't see that as spying in my eyes when you give consent to it, and know completely what they are gathering.

If they installed these meters, and didnt tell anyone it can do this, and still gathered data, yeah I would see it as spying.

But the fact that it is consented to, and completely known by the person, I do not see that as spying.

That would be like me installing a security system, that has cameras. And I pay a company to provide this service and monitor it, but then turn around and say they are spying on me.

How is that not spying?

Because it is done out in the open, there is nothing secretive about it.

You know exactly what is happening.

I believe this is the source of such thinking. He was head of the CIA at the time and that does cause one to pause.

Listen to your elders.

Pretty much everyone in the govt is my elder.

Think for yourself.

Statistical analysis can reveal a lot more than you think on the surface. Also, the usefulness of leaked information is dependent on who is reviewing the information and for what purpose.

Water usage information from the residence of a family of four over the course of a six month period prior to the return of a terrorist who is part of that family and once lived in that residence would be useful to someone tracking down that terrorist.

Most the time what government agencies mean by spying is looking for something completely innocuous until it's useful. So yes, so-called "smart" devices leak globs upon globs of completely useless information about you, until it suddenly becomes useful, that is.

/r/skeptic would be a good place to ask.

I don't think so. r/skeptic is one of the places with less critical thinking all over reddit.

Wait -

You mean a sub devoted to nay-sayers might have a skewed perspective?!

Next you'll tell me r/atheism is just a circlejerk!

How so? Any particular examples?

Edit: I find it funny that my skepticism is getting downvoted.

Those people tow the "popular opinion" and cite compromised sources. They tend to trust everything that is "official", which makes them not skeptics but actual retards. I am subscribed to that sub and am usually appalled at the responses on the posts.

No it wouldn't because the conspiratards will just lie to you.

That makes no sense. I don't think you understand what the word "conspiratard" means, or you're willfully misusing it. /r/skeptic isn't comprised of conspiracy theorists, it's comprised of actual skeptics.

No it's comprised of conspiratards like yourself.

He knows what it means.

It's true if a bug has been placed in your house. But you need to be a very high value target to get that level of service. If you are just a citizen/suspect, powering off your PC and taking the battery out of your phone should be sufficient.

Not in production yet, but that is their plan; the smartmeters are all set up to manage such appliances.

No, they are already on the market and in many homes. But they have to be combined with a smart meter.

Winzippy and Shazbaz answered you question perfectly.

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Well, it's a little worse than that if you are a VERY high value target. Some bugs can use an off-site power source beamed to the bug.

No, it is considered spying when you don't know about it, or what it entails.

We know exactly what these smart meters do, and how they are used. There is nothing secretive about it.

That does not constitute spying.

What are you talking about, do you even know what that means? Yes I stated you might be lazy because your statement screamed of lazy stupidity, almost like you only saw highlights of the thread and tried to throw your two cents in. But before hand I did prove your idea as stupid because anyone would see a strange box attached to their house.

So where is this attack only on your instead of your argument again? Please inform me. I attacked both, your argument first, then you for even posting so stupid of a comment. It didn't even match the thread.