What about the Haavara Agreement? Seems if they wanted the Jews exterminated inside the camps they wouldn't have gone through all the trouble of having an official program to emigrate the German Jews to Palestine with their wealth and property in tact.

What about the Haavara Agreement[1] ?

First of all, that doesn't magically mean the Wannsee Conference never happened, and the same with Operation Reinhard. Secondly, the plan became impossible to implement after Germany invaded Poland in 1939.

It's easy to fabricate things like Wannsee and Operation Reinhard after everyone's dead and/or spent time being tortured half to death in Soviet custody. In case you missed it, Hitler was very consumed with fighting a multi-front world war (and winning) against England, France & Russia until America got suckered into the fight. People always act like eradicating Jews was Hitler's numero uno goal in life, but it wasn't. I can assure you it was probably 5th or 6th on his list of importance. And if all he wanted to do was kill Jews than why go through all the trouble of loading them onto trains and transporting them to the camps? Why not just give orders to shoot Jews on sight?? Wouldn't that be more practical? It just doesn't add up, and it doesn't make any sense what the history books say about this. And the reason why it doesn't make sense is because the "winners" got to tell the story of how everything went down and the Germans have been so thoroughly shamed they'll never have the courage to try and correct anything.

It's easy to fabricate things like Wannsee and Operation Reinhard after everyone's dead and/or spent time being tortured half to death in Soviet custody.

It's not possible to fake that level of complexity. We're talking documents, firsthand accounts, hard evidence of the plans, and more. The Soviets could not possibly have managed to fake something of this scale.

People always act like eradicating Jews was Hitler's numero uno goal in life, but it wasn't. I can assure you it was probably 5th or 6th on his list of importance.

Like that somehow means it was no big deal that the Holocaust happened? It doesn't matter how high it ranked, it still ranked, and that's the issue.

Why not just give orders to shoot Jews on sight?? Wouldn't that be more practical?

He did

It just doesn't add up, and it doesn't make any sense what the history books say about this.

How exactly? Pretty much everything makes sense about this.

I guess I don't know what you're trying to accomplish here. I think we can agree the Soviets were hands down a much more brutal regime who killed and tortured untold millions more in their gulags than the Germans ever did.

Have you ever watched this goofy little documentary about the gas chambers of Auschwitz or this one about some of the other popular camps? I'm not a Holocaust denier in any way, but after viewing these, I have little doubt that the 6 million number is a total farce.

think we can agree the Soviets were hands down a much more brutal regime who killed and tortured untold millions more in their gulags than the Germans ever did.

Except that a) The Soviet regime lasted a lot longer than the Nazis, b) when you account for this, the Nazis were far more brutal, and c) no one denies the Soviets were responsible for some brutal things like the purges and Holodomor. Also, d) the Japanese were just as bad as either the Soviets or the Nazis in terms of brutality (see: Unit 731). As for the thing on the gas chambers, a lot of their evidence hinges on the Leuchter report, which has a lot of holes. The documentaries also never account for the deaths having any other cause than gassing (though the majority where), such as the Einsatgruppen.

They're all bad, but you'll never convince me the Nazis were worse than the Soviets during that same time period. He who killed the most takes that crown. And that man is Stalin because his regime killed far, far more people, tens of millions it was often claimed, in the endless wastes of the Gulag.

And that man is Stalin because his regime killed far, far more people, tens of millions it was often claimed, in the endless wastes of the Gulag.

Do you have a source for this? Because between the Holodomor and the purges, the death toll is only around 4.3 million (which is still not exactly tiny).

Hitler definitely wanted them out of Germany,

More specifically, he wanted the Jews where they could no longer do harm to the German people.

Ive never read Mein Kampf, but I can tell you haven't either.

Is there really any solid evidence behind the gas chambers? Many scholars, including Jewish ones, say no. Why would they incinerate bodies pumped full of explosive gas? Why would they spend so much on lethal gas when they could have just stopped food or water rations?

Millions of people did die in concentration camps, however 6 million Jews? No. The number is closer to between 100-200 thousand. There were not even 6 millions Jewish persons living in Europe at the time.

Was there an extermination of the Jewish population? Likely not. As you said, there is no evidence. Most of the Jewish lives lost were from the Allies bombing the railroads and halting the flow of food into the camps, thus causing the prisoners to starve to death.

In this light, did the "holocaust" really happen? Being objective, not really, but it depends how you define it. Were a lot of innocent lives lost in a horrible set of events set in motion by an evil dictator? Absolutely. Were one group of people singled out on top of other groups? Yes. Was it awful? Yes.

Is there really any solid evidence behind the gas chambers?

Yes, yes there is.

Many scholars, including Jewish ones, say no

Can you give an example? And please don't cite the Leuchter report, since there are so many holes in it it's not even funny.

Why would they incinerate bodies pumped full of explosive gas?

The gas was only explosive in very high concentrations, higher even than was needed to kill people with.

There were not even 6 millions Jewish persons living in Europe at the time.

Oh really?

Source: Dawidowicz, Lucy. The War Against the Jews, Bantam, 1986.p. 403

Why would they spend so much on lethal gas when they could have just stopped food or water rations?

Because that is not particularly efficient.

Was there an extermination of the Jewish population? Likely not.

See table above.

Most of the Jewish lives lost were from the Allies bombing the railroads and halting the flow of food into the camps, thus causing the prisoners to starve to death.

You do realize that even former SS members disagree with you right?

• Hearing about Holocaust denial compelled former SS-Rottenführer Oskar Gröning to publicly speak about what he witnessed at Auschwitz, and denounce Holocaust deniers,stating: "I would like you to believe me. I saw the gas chambers. I saw the crematoria. I saw the open fires. I was on the ramp when the selections took place. I would like you to believe that these atrocities happened because I was there."

• SS-Oberscharführer Josef Klehr has said that anyone who maintains that nobody was gassed at Auschwitz must be "crazy or on the wrong"

trying too hard.

Sorry to interrupt your bullshit with evidence:

See 1938: 8,900,000 Jews in Europe

See 1948: 9,400,000 Jews in Europe

The other 5,999,999, 6,000,000 (TM) dissapeared into the non-existent Gas Chambers in Auschwitz.

Can you explain where these are from? Because I found numbers that completely disagree with you, and they are by the same group as your 1938 photo.

• Estimates of the world Jewish population have been assembled by the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee (except for the United States and Canada) and are probably the most authentic available at the present time.1 The figures reveal that the total Jewish population of the world has decreased by one-third, from about 16,600,000 in 1939 to about 11,000,000 in 1946, as a result of the annihilation by the Nazis of more than five and a half million European Jews. In Europe only an estimated 3,642,000 remain of the total Jewish pre-war population of approximately 9,740,000. Source

Maybe because your source is, get this, the American Jewish Archives (ha! great source there) which has no choice but to pump out any numbers it can think of to support the ludicrious 6,000,000(TM) figure.

Think for a second: If one of the American Jewish Council's employees says

"Actually boss, if we use real, independent data then there is no way we can support our 6,000,000 claim"

what would happen then, to that employee?

You would have to provide an independent source, like I did, before I will treat it as worthy of replying to directly - before I respond to the substance of your claim (if you could still make the claim then).

Maybe because your source is, get this, the American Jewish Archives (ha! great source there)

It's almost like they would know these kinds of things.

You would have to provide an independent source, like I did, before I will treat it as worthy of replying to directly - before I respond to the substance of your claim (if you could still make the claim then).

But your first photo is from them! Are you now claiming it's not applicable as a source? Also, you have yet to explain where your second source is from.

If it's that much of an issue, here's the world almanac numbers in 1939 and 1949:

1939:16,643,120

1949:11,266,600

These numbers are not based in reality.

How about actually proving why this is, instead of just dismissing the numbers. Also, I could easily find census data that would agree with the table, even if this one isn't somehow good enough.

Why use gas when a good old fashioned stick will do the job for free.

As the Soviets and Chinese Communists discovered, the most efficient way to kill large numbers of human beings is a single pistol round to the back of the head. That is what the Nazis probably would have used if they had ever intended to exterminate the Jews. But they did not use it, because there was no such extermination policy.

So you're saying the Einsatzgruppen didn't exist?

Did not use it in the camps.

No, but they still used it. And they used gas in the camps, because that was even more efficient.

They built huge facilities for the purpose of extermination? No, that's ridiculous. Gassing, cremation etc, is insane. The jews (Soviet jews) killed Ukrainians by starving and shooting them, there's too many jewish survivors to give any creedence to that gassing myth.

They built huge facilities for the purpose of extermination? No, that's ridiculous.

How so? It's almost as if this was seen as a long-term project, which would require a very efficient set-up

The jews (Soviet jews) killed Ukrainians by starving and shooting them, there's too many jewish survivors to give any creedence to that gassing myth.

First of all, what does the Holodomor have to do with the Holocaust? Secondly, since when are all Soviets Jews? And finally, you do realize that among the Ukrainians killed were a significant number of Jews, right?

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They were, at most, 2000 men in a brutal fight with insurgents behind the front lines.

Actually, they ranged from between 2,700 to 3,000 men. And that was not at all their purpose.

• In a letter dated 2 July 1941 Heydrich communicated to his SS and Police Leaders that the Einsatzgruppen were to execute all senior and middle ranking Comintern officials; all senior and middle ranking members of the central, provincial, and district committees of the Communist Party; extremist and radical Communist Party members; people's commissars; and Jews in party and government posts. Open-ended instructions were given to execute "other radical elements (saboteurs, propagandists, snipers, assassins, agitators, etc.)." He instructed that any pogroms spontaneously initiated by the occupants of the conquered territories were to be quietly encouraged. On 8 July, he announced that all Jews were to be regarded as partisans, and gave the order for all male Jews between the ages of 15 and 45 to be shot. On 17 July Heydrich ordered that the Einsatzgruppen were to kill all Jewish Red Army prisoners of war, plus all Red Army prisoners of war from Georgia and Central Asia, as they too might be Jews.

but to put that figure at 2 million (just of Jews) is extremely difficult to prove, or to justify.

Except that they kept very detailed records of how many they killed. In just a 5 moth period, one single unit of the Einsatzgruppen killed 136,421 Jews alone.

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Oh yes, the infamous "Jager Report", which was "found" fifteen years later by the Soviets.

You mean the same report which had 5 different copies (although the other 4 were destroyed), and which the guy who wrote it admitted to writing? I really hope you're not serious right now.

The same Soviets who "reconstructed" the "gas chamber" at Auschwitz-1, according to Franciszek Piper, Director of Research at the Auschwitz State Museum.

Are you really claiming that there were no gas chambers?

The same Soviets who forged the identification card of Demjanjuk.

This has never been proven. Just claimed.

The same Soviets who tried to pin the Katyn massacre on the Germans.

Because this somehow invalidates anything they have ever done ever?

in addition to their job of maintaining order behind front lines, and fighting partisans?

Their job never included maintaining order.

[deleted]

I think you would be better off saying "alleged copies", if they don't exist.

I see. And there were only four copies of the Magna Carta ever made, since let's be honest, any others that were lost just didn't ever exist.

Well, he was found not guilty, so the court must have concluded it was forged. Plus, FBI seems to think it was forged. But hey, what would they know, right? They're probably all secret anti-semites...

I'm not saying it wasn't forged, I'm saying there is no evidence that the Soviets were the forgers.

It means you need more than a piece of paper, or some words spoken by a person.

So in other words, first-person accounts are now invalid? Good to know.

[deleted]

Maybe present some evidence that the other copies exist, and evidence showing where they were found. Otherwise, it's just words.

I already know that no matter what I say you'll just dismiss it, so why even bother?

Maybe he forged it himself, for the publicity?

All I'm saying is that there is nothing liking the forgery with the Soviets, which is why using that claim as an argument as to why the Soviets are untrustworthy does not make sense.

Yes, when they are contradicted by physical evidence, or the absence of physical evidence. Please don't ever become a police officer or a historian.

And this famed physical evidence is? And don't forget, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[deleted]

If your assertions were backed by good evidence, I wouldn't dismiss them. So either you have evidence, or you don't. Which is it?

It's not that they're not backed by good evidence (they are), it's that I can already tell you're going to find some way of weaselling out of accounting for them (i.e. claiming they were faked, made under torture, etc...)

Lol. This is an argument that if they can't find the graves, then they're probably there, despite that fact. You are diminishing the fact that there is very very little physical/forensic evidence to support this narrative.

We've been over this. We have found some graves, but many were destroyed to hide any evidence of them. It's not particularly hard to understand.

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Would you accept the photos I gave of Sonderaktion 1005 in my other response to you? If not I can use something else.

[deleted]

Just on the 'meth binge' thing, where is the primary evidence to support this claim?

[deleted]

I try to avoid 'History channel' nonsense. Is there any primary evidence cited within that 'documentary' to verify the claims?

Ive been to Auschwitz an have seen the gas chambers. With nail marks on the walls. How could that be explained?

Evil dictator? It seems to me that the two factors that primarily contribute to Adolf Hitler's supposed evilness are the The Holocaust™ and the supposed instigation of WWII. As you have established the dubiousness of the former claim, allow me to dispute the latter:

In 1917 the Jews overthrew the Russian Empire and created the USSR, beginning one of the bloodiest two decades in world history. Millions upon millions were murdered by the Bolshevik regime. The communists sought to dig their claws into all of Europe after their success in Russia, and in particular in Germany. The NSDAP was always a staunch opponent to Judeo-Bolshevism, and this view was shared by literally all the oppressed peoples of the Soviet Union (see zydokomuna, from Polska). Because Jews overwhelmingly supported the ideas of Marxism, especially as one traveled further east, the National Socialists initiated laws that limited the ability of Jews to manipulate public life. In the 1930s after Hitler's election the Jewish community worldwide organized a boycott of all German goods. Now, being boycotted by less than 1% of the population doesn't seem to be too bad, but when that 1% controls a disproportionate amount of world business and production, it can be quite devastating.

So, on to appeasement; the Germans annexed Austria and the Sudetenland, and the Munich Agreement was signed wherein Britain would allow Germany to keep it's Sudeten territories, as long as Germany pursued no policy of expansionism. Chamberlain was being hopelessly naive; the pursuit of a Greater Germany would not stop with the Sudeten Germans. Next up, the Germans living in the territory granted to the Poles following the humiliating, devastating Treaty of Versailles. The city of Danzig in particular was the object of German ambitions. Ethnic Germans living in the east were being subjected to terrible abuses, as the Poles believed that with Britain and France by their side, they could poke and prod the Germans. After all, the Munich Agreement prevented the Germans from retaliating in any way!

Germany would not be so weak and indolent. They invaded Poland and reduced Polish territory to the region surrounding Warsaw, Krakow, and Lwow. But the "Allies" would not sit back and watch. The British and French had both signed defensive pacts with Poland, and Poland thought that even if Germany broke the Munchen Agreement and invaded, they would be aided by the British and French. Now, obviously not all Poles were so short-sighted and arrogant. But the power of those forces who wished to destroy Germany (namely, plutocratic western and Communist eastern Jews, and their goyim subjects), is difficult to overestimate in the late 1930s.

Did the British and French help the Poles maintain their independence as the treaty stipulated? NO, and this is one of the greatest betrayals of the modern age. They allowed the Germans and the Soviets and carve up Poland's dying body, and the sole purpose of the defensive pact was to drag the British and French into a war, with the intent of destroying Germany. We can see a similar scenario in the American entry in the war; they exploited Japan and Germany's defensive pact, and provoked the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor, in order to crush Hitler in Europe.

The history books are wrong. I recommend this excellent article which details WWII far more objectively than those history books written by the vile victors of that war.

objectively

Holy hell this is the funniest "article" I've read all week.

Terrific contribution. Please keep doing good work by spreading this information. People like myself who have never really studied this aspect of history rely on people like you to present this 'side', because schools and the msm only present the ridiculous 'Germany evil, 6m Jews' side.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen

Where are all the mass graves? If you are implying that those who supposedly were gassed in camps were instead summarily executed by the mobile-task-force, then there would be a substantial quantity of non-cremated bodies in mass graves throughout eastern Europe. What examples can you give me aside from Kathyn (done by USSR) and Babi Yar?

Wikipedia is a horrible source, it possesses an enormous bias towards the left, and is consequentially highly Judeophiliac and Germanophobic.

The people murdered by these death squads, would be registered and processed before they were killed. There exist substantial records inside the Nazi archives of their own industrial level extermination operations. In terms of Graves there are vast and numerous sites punctuating the path of the einsatzgruppen, winding through Poland as they killed their way across eastern Europe into Russia.

One of the largest Graves is located in Vilnius, Lithuania in an unfinished Soviet fuel storage site. the einsatzgruppen followed behind the Wehrmacht to clean up civilian undesirables, but their mission was to enact the final solution. At first the death squads encouraged the local population to murder the Jewish community amongst themselves, which occurred sporadically, eg in the death dealer of Kovno incident, but shortly thereafter the einsatzgruppen directed the mass killings independently for efficiency.

But in terms of substantiation, the Nazis documented their own crimes. There is a vast historical record also of the attempted cover up once the war appeared lost. Either way, the truth isn't difficult to ascertain if you are interested. It's up to you to study the available records, which I assure you are thorough.

A good start, if you're interested is the destruction of the European Jews by Hilberg.

Where are all the mass graves?

You have Sonderaktion 1005 to thank for that.

[deleted]

He's talking about the supposed mass graves of the 2 million killed by EG

• The operation also returned to the scenes of earlier mass killings such as Babi Yar, Ponary, the Ninth Fort, as well as Bronna Góra. By 1944, with Soviet armies advancing, SS-Obergruppenführer Wilhelm Koppe, head of the Reichsgau Wartheland ordered that each of the five districts of General Government territory set up its own Aktion 1005 commando to begin "cleaning" mass graves. The operations were not entirely successful as the advancing Soviet troops reached some of the sites before they could be cleared.

[deleted]

How many do you think died at Babi Yar, by the way, and what do you base this on?

33,771. So in other words, mass graves the size that you're talking about.

[deleted]

Something with actual evidence behind it, according to documents and testimonies. FFS, we even have pictures of this.

[deleted]

Sure.

• Members of a Sonderkommando 1005 unit pose next to a bone crushing machine in the Janowska concentration camp

• Here's a pyre

• Another pyre

• A pile of the crushed remains

• Bonus: Einsatzgruppen at Babi Yar

[deleted]

The problem is that these images need to be placed in context by further information or evidence, because on their own they don't substantiate the total of 2 million non-combat Jewish civilians killed by the EG. We all know how photographs can be used to manipulate - this happened in (and after) WW2.

At the very least, they show that the Eisatzgruppen was involved with mass murder, and that there were not were there only mass graves, but that they were also destroyed. This was the point I was trying to make.

The last photo, for example, shows an execution. How do we know these were not partisans?

Would that somehow make it better if it was? It's still a mass execution of unarmed civilians.

The first photo shows men standing next to a "bone crushing machine" - can you not provide any more context? (What specifically is the machine? Who manufactured it, what was it primarily used for, and how many were in German possession? Are they German soldiers? Why aren't they in uniform? Etc.)

According to multiple sources, they are Sonderkommandos. As for who made it and how many the Nazis had, I have no clue.

I really recommend this movie, to everybody who is interested in this topic http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_radikal_Böse_(Film) its directed by academy award winner Stefan Ruzowitzky and imo gives highly interesting insight as to why these massacres were possible to happen

The most noteworthy unverified historical fact is that Hitler commanded the systematic extermination of the Jews.

We have the camps, conferences and plans, entire groups of the army, and even former SS officers who agree it happened, and more that has clear evidence to prove there was systemic extermination.

Stalin conducted organized exterminations of populations on a greater scale than the Germans, yet the Jewish victims of German are made the focus, if not the sole subject, of the popular history of WWII.

No he didn't. Combined, the Holodomor and the purges had a death toll of between 3.2-8.3 million (exact numbers for Holodomor are unknown) although most modern estimates put the combined death toll at around 4.3 million for both the purges and Holodomor combined. This is of course still extremely large and the Holodomor was undeniably a genocide, but it was not larger than the Holocaust.

Jewish victims of German are made the focus, if not the sole subject, of the popular history of WWII.

I can totally agree that we should also talk about the other groups killed, such as Gypsies, Homosexuals, Freemasions, Jehovas Witnesses, Soviet POW's, and the disabled. But that doesn't mean the the Holocaust was any less of a tragedy than it was (in fact, it would be even worse, since the total death toll of all the groups was 12 million)

Holodomor. Look past Wikipedia. Metapedia (meaning "beyond the pedia") is a good opposing source. Chances are the truth lies somewhere between the two narratives. Regardless, Wikipedia is propaganda. Don't you think it is strange that whenever you google search something related to WWII, just about every result on the first two pages is Wikipedia, ADL, B'nai Brith, USHMM, Jewish Virtual Library, etc? I am willing to find Wikipedia guilty by association...

I also recommend Solzhenitsyn's 200 Years Together as an objective examination of the Jewish role in Russia and the USSR.

edit: Also read this insightful IHR article about Simon Wiesenthal's role in popularizing the myth that the Germans pursued extermination policies for Poles and other groups. Truly unbelievable that the confessions of a few men extracted under torture have been used to propagate the unforgivable lie that blames German sadism and hatred for the deaths of millions...

Holodomor[1]

They claim 16.5 million, which not only is higher than pretty much any number currently accepted, but also has no source or who said it. In other words, it's just a random number that could easily have been pulled out of their ass.

Look past Wikipedia. Metapedia (meaning "beyond the pedia") is a good opposing source.

Looking at some of the articles on it, such as "the Preisthood caste", "6 million Jews" being under "folklore and religion", their list of "historians and investigators being literally only notable Holocaust deniers/revisionists, and their article on revisionism, which is just Holocaust denial apologism. Frankly, this seems like a beyond terrible source, and can't even get their facts straight, or give actual sources.

Don't you think it is strange that whenever you google search something related to WWII, just about every result on the first two pages is Wikipedia[2] , ADL, B'nai Brith, USHMM, Jewish Virtual Library, etc?

Not particularly. Wikipedia is always the top search, so that is completely unsurprising. As for the others, it's likely because they have good information and are well written. Besides, what do you expect to be at the top? holocaustrevision.com?

I am willing to find Wikipedia guilty by association...

That just doesn't make sense

edit: Also read this insight IHR article about Simon Wiesenthal[3] 's

Did you really link me the IHR?

The 16.5 million figure accounts for all the engineered famines that took place from 1917 until WWII. A great sin of Western historiography is to view the Holodomor as a singular event in 1933, and that aside from that year, things were fine for Christians in the USSR. This is patently false.

Your infatuation with the myth of 6 million means that my efforts are wasted on you. Hopefully some day you will realize that not even Jews believe that figure; they acknowledge it as symbolic, and as a continuation of the longstanding numerical tradition of Jews claiming 6 million of their kind persecuted by the Czars.

I would hope that those articles at the top of the list would be objective examinations of history, not emotion-ridden appeals written by those who have the most to gain from perpetuating the Holocaust myth.

The 16.5 million figure accounts for all the engineered famines that took place from 1917 until WWII.

Such as? To the best of my knowledge, the only major famine was the Holodomor. I'm also curious as to why you start it at 1917.

things were fine for Christians in the USSR

Because the Holodomor specifically targeted Christians? This is news.

Your infatuation with the myth of 6 million means that my efforts are wasted on you.

Appreciate how little you're willing to argue your points. For the record, I did read the IHR thing, and it was full of so many holes it wasn't funny.

Hopefully some day you will realize that not even Jews believe that figure; they acknowledge it as symbolic, and as a continuation of the longstanding numerical tradition of Jews claiming 6 million of their kind perished to the Czars.[1]

I have yet to meet a single Jew who has ever claimed this, likely because no Jews actually believe this. Also, could you please link to a specific source, and not a google search?

I would hope that those articles at the top of the list would be objective examinations of history, not emotion-ridden appeals written by those who have the most to gain from perpetuating the Holocaust myth.

You'd hope, but sadly, you'd be wrong for the most part. Seriously, the third result is Stormfront. That being said, there are also some results like this which give a decent explanation of the number. And before you claim that Haaretz is a biased source, I'd point out that you linked the search, not me. In fact, the best source in the search is this one, since it disagrees with your (and metapedias) argument that Jews were completely unharmed throughout the history of the Soviet Union.

I haven't seen anything to suggest that Hitler himself commanded or had specific knowledge of the Jewish death factories we are taught about in history class. This isn't to say that Hitler wasn't responsible for the Nazi activities, but its grounds for questioning that Hitler's personal agenda included the mass murder of Jews.

• In 1922 Hitler told Major Josef Hell (a journalist at the time): Once I really am in power, my first and foremost task will be the annihilation of the Jews. As soon as I have the power to do so, I will have gallows built in rows—at the Marienplatz in Munich, for example—as many as traffic allows. Then the Jews will be hanged indiscriminately, and they will remain hanging until they stink; they will hang there as long as the principles of hygiene permit. As soon as they have been untied, the next batch will be strung up, and so on down the line, until the last Jew in Munich has been exterminated. Other cities will follow suit, precisely in this fashion, until all Germany has been completely cleansed of Jews.

• On 21 January 1939 Hitler spoke with František Chvalkovský and said: We are going to destroy the Jews. They are not going to get away with what they did on 9 November 1918. The day of reckoning has come.

• On 30 January at the Sports Palace in Berlin, Hitler told the crowd: And we say that the war will not end as the Jews imagine it will, namely with the uprooting of the Aryans, but the result of this war will be the complete annihilation of the Jews.

• In Mein Kampf, Hitler argued that a war against Jews would have saved Germany from losing World War I: If at the beginning of the war and during the war twelve or fifteen thousand of these Hebrew corrupters of the people had been held under poison gas, as happened to hundreds of thousands of our very best German workers in the field, the sacrifice of millions at the front would not have been in vain.

• In the following widely cited speech made on January 30, 1939, Hitler says to the Reichstag: Today I want to be a prophet once more: if international Jewish financiers inside and outside Europe again succeed in plunging the nations into a world war, the result will not be the Bolshevization of the earth and with it the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!

Note: Hitler's choice of language in German in the final sentence of the above passage is "die Vernichtung der jüdischen Rasse in Europa" - unambiguously meaning "the extermination [or annihilation] of the Jewish race in Europe."

• In his personal diary, Joseph Goebbels writes: "February 14, 1942: The Führer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness.

• When questioned by interrogators if orders for the extermination of Jews were delegated in writing by Himmler, Adolf Eichmann states: I never saw a written order, Herr Hauptmann. All I know is that Heydrich said to me: "The Führer has ordered the physical extermination of the Jews." He said that as clearly and surely as I'm repeating it now.

Are there recordings of any of these?

Some of these are taken from the diaries of people who heard this firsthand, and would also have no reason to randomly implicate Hitler, since they were private diaries. As for all the others, I'd guess that yes, since they were all from public speeches, or to people who then gave firsthand accounts.

I'm just skeptical of second-hand accounts of wartime vilification of the enemy.

These were all Germans.

You come hear to raise a massive point and then leave when presented with substantial evidence and logic? My god the situation is worse than I thought.

Jews were systematically removed from German society,

You write not a single word about why the Germans did this. You do not even consider that it may have been justified, due to the power Jews held in German society at the time, and their abuse of that power.

the prisoners lives must have been worthless to their captors.

On the contrary, it is obvious that the Germans went to great lengths to preserve the lives of the people in concentration camps. What do you think the gassing of clothing, or the shaving of heads, was all about? It was an effort to cut down on disease, which the Jews brought themselves into the camps, so that more people would live.

The only arguable details involve the number killed, and how they were killed.

Wrong! There are innumerable details of the Holocaust mythology that must be questioned, and that on the face of it are absurd. The very idea that the Germans ever intended to exterminate Jews is not at all proven by any real evidence that exist, as you yourself point out.

Ask yourself, what was the purpose of concentration camps in the United States during WW2? There's your answer. The Germans had concentration camps for the same reason the Americans had concentration camps -- to concentrate the people who were considered dangerous and needed to be watched. During the War, the Germans also used those in the camps for slave labor. America, with its vast resources, wealth and mass production lines, never needed slave labor, so none was used. America was never even seriously stressed during the War, but it is telling that they, too, had concentration camps, just like the Germans.

Deportation to Madagascar, the actual Endlosung.

There's a lot more you could say. As regards Hitlers motivation and jewish motivation. It's something which has to be addressed, was he was a maniac or a prophet? No country in the world would voluntary allowed themselves to be conquered. I feel you we're a little disingenous when you omitted the jews sins when it came to the 2nd world war. Seriously? No mention of the jewish controlled Russia, or the jewish lead communist party in Germany. Let's not talk about the jewish boycott of German goods.

The Nazis lost the war, that's why they're demonized and the atrocities of the Stalin regime swept under the rug.

Does anyone have anything to add about the work done by David Cole?

I think it's interesting but I'm a newcomer to WWII/Holocaust revisionism.

I just watched his home made documentary about the prison camps, where he examines the gas chambers and interviews the leaders of the camp conservation organization.

1. Evidence that the Auschwitz gas chamber had once been several rooms with toilet facilities.

2. Evidence that the rooftop holes where zyklon pellets were supposedly dumped into the gas chamber were added after the war, as stated by the historians in charge of the facility.

3. Fake chimneys that are not attached to anything.

4. Lack of physical evidence of any traces of cyanide on the walls of the death chambers verified by two independent tests.

5. Swimming pools and other amenities in Auschwitz that are never really mentioned.

6. Lack of hard documentation concerning any plans for mass gassings.

7. False, debunked artifacts of Nazi sadism touted by the Soviets, such as lamps made of human skin, soap made of human flesh, shrunken heads

8. The tallies of known dead from the camps shrinking with every revision, yet the total number being the same.

9. Admittance of forced confessions extracted from Nazi officers by torture.

And so on...

I mostly just would like to hear what others in this sub have to add about this.

Evidence that the Auschwitz gas chamber had once been several rooms with toilet facilities.

That had traces of cyanide on them? Not to mention firsthand accounts of this by both guards and prisoners? (2&3 fall under this issue too)

Lack of physical evidence of any traces of cyanide on the walls of the death chambers verified by two independent tests.

The only test that ever showed this was the Leuchter report, which was so full of holes it wasn't even funny. (Not to mention that later tests proved he was completely wrong).

Swimming pools and other amenities in Auschwitz that are never really mentioned.

Mostly because they were only there so the Nazis could use them as propoganda.

Lack of hard documentation concerning any plans for mass gassings.

Seriously? Operation Reinhard clearly happened, we have documentation, firsthand accounts, and more (such as photos).

False, debunked artifacts of Nazi sadism touted by the Soviets, such as lamps made of human skin, soap made of human flesh, shrunken heads

TBH, I don't recall anyone ever trying to claim these things.

Admittance of forced confessions extracted from Nazi officers by torture.

This was a small fraction of the confessions, and almost all the other testimonies agreed with what was being said by them anyways.

[deleted]

Then (and I apologize if this is starting to sound repetitive,) you simply don't know what you're talking about. A more recent, far more comprehensive report is 'The Rudolf Report'[1] .

No, I'm aware of the Rudolf report. It makes the identical errors as the Leuchter report, and also has a pretty clear bias towards Holocaust denial, in how his experiments were carried out.

Check out what happened to this guy - a researcher from the prestigious Max Planck Institute - afterwards.

What does this have to do with the actual contents of the report? Not to mention the Germany has (understandably) harsh laws against Holocaust denial, so this is hardly unexpected.

In 1990 The Krakow Forensic Institute also ran tests[2] which corroborated Leuchter's results.

Actually, they found the exact opposite, which is traces of cyanide, which proved Leuchter wrong. Also, the IHR is not exactly a non-biased or even particularly honest publication.

Human skin lampshades, soap from humans, shrunken heads - these were all presented as evidence at Nuremberg!

Can you provide a source for this?

The Nazi "confessions" were very few, and inaccurate.

When you say this, are you just accounting for anything said at Nuremberg, or also later on, because there were quite a few confessions. Also, they were very accurate, and could easily be corroborated by other independent confessions.

We know Hoess was tortured because his torturer wrote about it!

And even despite this, what he said can be corroborated with multiple non-tortured accounts that agree entirely, such as the diaries of Pery Broad, an SS man stationed at Auschwitz while Höss was the commandant and the diary kept by SS physician at Auschwitz Johann Kremer, as well as the testimony of hundreds of camp guards and victims.

Also, there are even SS members who have disagreed with Holocaust denial:

• SS-Oberscharführer Josef Klehr has said that anyone who maintains that nobody was gassed at Auschwitz must be "crazy or on the wrong". SS-Unterscharführer Oswald Kaduk has stated that he does not consider those who maintain such a thing as normal people. Hearing about Holocaust denial compelled former SS-Rottenführer Oskar Gröning to publicly speak about what he witnessed at Auschwitz, and denounce Holocaust deniers, stating: I would like you to believe me. I saw the gas chambers. I saw the crematoria. I saw the open fires. I was on the ramp when the selections took place. I would like you to believe that these atrocities happened because I was there.

First off, I find the trial of Leuchter very ... odd. The first thing that the judge does is condemn Leuchter for his "lack of qualification" to be presenting such evidence. The very first movement of the trial is blatant character assassination before any shred of evidence is even considered.

That alone, to me, reeks of corruption.

On top of that, you do mention that "holocaust denial" is illegal in several countries. Have you stopped to think about that? This is the only historical event, the "belief" in which is enforced by law and cannot, by law, be questioned. Why?

Why is holocaust revisionism some kind of inquisition? You don't see moon landing conspiracy theorists, pushers of homeopathy, or other nut bags with crazy ideas being dragged before magistrates. The blatant pursuit and persecution of holocaust heretics alone lends credence to the fact that there is a powerful interest in keeping the official story intact in public opinion.

Truth doesn't need to be upheld at the end of a sword.

The fact remains that there is very little in terms of physical evidence that the gas chambers existed. The wiki page you linked mentions a few documents related to train schedules and some sparse reports of the numbers of people sent to the camps. No one denies that a lot of people were interred in the camps, but there is not a shred of any document which mentions mass extermination or gas chambers.

The claim that most of the gassing chambers were demolished before the Allies liberated the camps is rather.... convenient.

Nevertheless, all of the things you've cited do not answer the bulk of the outstanding questions brought up by Cole's investigation alone.

Such as, why were fake holes built into the Auschwitz chamber after the war, and why are they being shown to the public falsely as the portals through which gas was thrown? Piper himself admitted that this was not true and yet they were willfully feeding tourists false information.

Why the fake chimneys? Again, it appears as though someone set up these "props" to make the place seem more menacing.

The swimming pool? You realize there are conflicting witness reports about Auschwitz, many claim that there was a theater and the swimming pool was for use by the inmates. Why would the SS build a pool just for propaganda? That sounds like a convenient denial, and just makes no damn sense, especially being that it is never shown to anyone who tours the facility. Most people have no clue that it even exists. Propaganda my ass!

Furthermore, you have also failed to mention several key events leading up to the war. Firstly, the Jewish declaration of war on Germany in 1933. This is in conflict with information found on the wiki page for Operation Reinhard, which claims that death camps were already in operation as early as 1933.

Not to mention that Hitler was not even at the height of his power in 33, he didn't even have total control over the military at that time has he had only recently become Chancellor. How could he have organized the round up and extermination of that many people in such a short amount of time?

According to this page the first German act against Jews was

"The Nazi regime protested internationally and on April 1, 1933, organized a (one day) boycott of Jewish businesses in Germany,[2] which was the first of official anti-Jewish acts by the German government."

and of course was a purely reactionary course of action against what was seen as Jewish aggression.

It was the Jews who drew first blood on Germany, not the other way around, as our history lessons had us believe.

You have also failed to mention anything concerning the resulting Haavara Agreement, which again, conflicts with the mythology of a murderous Hitler. It is no secret that Hitler did not particularly like the Jewish people, and that he wanted them out of Germany. His solution was to strike a peace accord with the Zionists, and facilitate the peaceful transfer of Jews to Palestine with all of their wealth and personal possessions in-tact. It was an agreement that continued until the war made the transfers impossible. This was, in fact, the beginning of the state of Israel, a fact also not taught as part of the "hitler bad" discourse of WWII history.

As far as eyewitness testimony, there is a lot of controversy due to the fact that there are so many conflicting accounts. Some witnesses still claim there were gassings at camps which historians have concluded that no such thing occurred. I have serious doubts about SS witnesses, given that so many hundreds of thousands of their former brothers in arms were hanged, starved to death in POW camps after the war, hauled off to gulags, or hunted down by the Mossad. It makes too much sense that they'd say anything to appear remorseful in the face of the propaganda onslaught that was occurring after the war. I don't personally trust it.

If you take away all of the emotional circumstantial narratives, and stick to things that are empirically verifiable, you find that there is really very little that holds water.

Here is a page with some information about the false evidence of German atrocity presented at Nuremberg.

http://exposing-the-holocaust-hoax-archive.blogspot.com/2009/10/human-skin-lampshades-and-nazi-shrunken.html

There are plenty of other sources on that topic alone if that doesn't satisfy you.

First off, I find the trial of Leuchter very ... odd. The first thing that the judge does is condemn Leuchter for his "lack of qualification" to be presenting such evidence.

How exactly would this not be an issue? If he has no idea what he's doing, that's kinda an issue. It's the same reason that no one takes Graham Hancock seriously; he has no idea what he's talking about.

On top of that, you do mention that "holocaust denial" is illegal in several countries. Have you stopped to think about that? This is the only historical event, the "belief" in which is enforced by law and cannot, by law, be questioned. Why?

The list of the countries where it is illegal is quite small, and most cases seem to be in Germany. If you really have to ask yourself why Germany would be so against Holocaust denial, then there's nothing more I can say.

The blatant pursuit and persecution of holocaust heretics alone lends credence to the fact that there is a powerful interest in keeping the official story intact in public opinion.

Pretty sure it also has to do with Holocaust denial often going hand-in-hand with antisemitism and neo-nazism.

but there is not a shred of any document which mentions mass extermination or gas chambers.

Lolwut?

The claim that most of the gassing chambers were demolished before the Allies liberated the camps is rather.... convenient.

Or it would be, if not for the fact they we have blatant evidence they did just this

Such as, why were fake holes built into the Auschwitz chamber after the war, and why are they being shown to the public falsely as the portals through which gas was thrown?

Are these the same rooms that had fairly significant amounts of cyanide residue in them?

The swimming pool? You realize there are conflicting witness reports about Auschwitz, many claim that there was a theater and the swimming pool was for use by the inmates.

Important clarification; do we know anything about the people giving said testimonies, aside from them being holocaust survivors? It seems far more likely that there is some other reason (i.e. false memories), especially considering the overwhelming opinion by both other inmates and former Nazis (even reports written at the time). Also, you do know that the swimming pool and all that was literally made so it could be put in a propoganda video), right? You can even find the video if you look around. Also, how is this somehow unbelievable? The express purpose of the video was to hide the fact that they were actively and brutally murdering people from the general public (and also from people who would be sent there later).

Furthermore, you have also failed to mention several key events leading up to the war. Firstly, the Jewish declaration of war on Germany in 1933.

If you're talking about this, then you clearly have no clue about context. The closest that there was to "war" was a short Jewish boycott of German goods, due to the pretty blatantly anti-semetic laws and practices in place at the time (for reference, the Dachau concentration camp was opened four days earlier). The Nazis saw this as an act of aggression, which was why the Daily Express (which surprise! was a tabloid) sensationalized the title to claim Judea declared war. That's also why you never see the article, just the headline.

Not to mention that Hitler was not even at the height of his power in 33, he didn't even have total control over the military at that time has he had only recently become Chancellor. How could he have organized the round up and extermination of that many people in such a short amount of time?

First of all, because he had enough power pretty much as soon as the Reichstag fire happened, since he used it as a way to enact laws that essentially removed many civil liberties from the German population. Also, it doesn't take 10 years to build a single concentration camp.

According to this[1] page the first German act against Jews was

Is that the exact page that explained the article's context? Did you even read it?

You have also failed to mention anything concerning the resulting Haavara Agreement[2] , which again, conflicts with the mythology of a murderous Hitler.

I go into detail about it in other comments in this thread.

• First of all, that doesn't magically mean the Wannsee Conference never happened, and the same with Operation Reinhard. Secondly, the plan became impossible to implement after Germany invaded Poland in 1939.

It is no secret that Hitler did not particularly like the Jewish people, and that he wanted them out of Germany.

And the winner of understatement of the year is /u/tinkert0y.

As far as eyewitness testimony, there is a lot of controversy due to the fact that there are so many conflicting accounts.

Considering that 99% of the testimony (both survivor and Nazi) seems to agree with each other, I question where you go this from.

Some witnesses still claim there were gassings at camps which historians have concluded that no such thing occurred.

[Citation needed]

I have serious doubts about SS witnesses, given that so many hundreds of thousands of their former brothers in arms were hanged, starved to death in POW camps after the war, hauled off to gulags, or hunted down by the Mossad.

Frankly, this just sounds like a cop out. It's like arguing the moon landing was faked, but refusing to accept any proof from NASA. Also, you don't account for the many, many personal journals that were recovered, that agree with the rest of the testimonies and pieces of evidence.

If you take away all of the emotional circumstantial narratives, and stick to things that are empirically verifiable, you find that there is really very little that holds water.

Which is extremely ironic, given that you've outright claimed the Leuchter report to be fact.

http://exposing-the-holocaust-hoax-archive.blogspot.com/2009/10/human-skin-lampshades-and-nazi-shrunken.html[3]

First of all, the site is actually called "exposingtheholocausthoax.com"? That will definitely not be biased in the slightest. Secondly, their entire argument seems to hinge on one single sentence from a single testimony. That's nowhere near as important as most Holocaust deniers seem to claim it was.

There are plenty of other sources on that topic alone if that doesn't satisfy you.

Such as? And please don't link me something like Stormfront.

Yeah, so why don't we stop all of this semantic back-and-forth, and you can just list for all of us all of the factual empirical evidence that 6 million jews were exterminated in gas chambers.

That excludes anything circumstantial, including witness statements.

Oh, and speaking of bias, you dismiss the article about the lampshade and soap simply on the basis of what site it's on? How about judge the content of the article. Most of it is taken from the written record from the Neuremberg archives.

Yeah, so why don't we stop all of this semantic back-and-forth, and you can just list for all of us all of the factual empirical evidence that 6 million jews were exterminated in gas chambers.

So in other words, you refuse to accept my explanation of the many flaws in your theory?

That excludes anything circumstantial, including witness statements.

Because they are somehow worthless? Or they just don't agree with your opinion?

Oh, and speaking of bias, you dismiss the article about the lampshade and soap simply on the basis of what site it's on? How about judge the content of the article. Most of it is taken from the written record from the Neuremberg archives.

If you looked at what I wrote, you'd see that on top of the issue of bias (which wasn't even the main issue I had with it), there are actually some serious flaws in the article; notably that they took a single sentence of a single testimony and claimed it was something constantly brought up and repeatedly claimed.

No Im not saying I don't accept your explanations. I mean that we could go on with interpretations forever.

I would just like to reduce the discussion to hard empirical evidence.

As for witness testimony, there are too many conflicting accounts, and like I mentioned many German confessions were extracted by torture and intimidation. All in all, I don't consider it wholly reliable. If you can't do much better than that, then a doubter such as myself could conclude that it's all just hear-say.

I showed you the link to the lampshade and soap article because you mentioned that you had never heard of them, and it's important to note that it was presented as evidence of Nazi atrocity at the post war trial and did, in fact, if you bother to look into the issue yourself, persist as a myth for many years even after it was proven to be a fabrication.

No Im not saying I don't accept your explanations. I mean that we could go on with interpretations forever.

I'm saying that you brought up evidence that was actually fake, and to the best of my knowledge, there is no evidence the Holocaust did not happen/the death toll was significantly lower than the current estimate.

I would just like to reduce the discussion to hard empirical evidence.

I gave hard evidence already, in the form of documents, firsthand accounts in journals, photos, remains (both human and structural) and other things. There is already no shortage of evidence, even if you refuse to listen to accounts by guards and survivors.

As for witness testimony, there are too many conflicting accounts, and like I mentioned many German confessions were extracted by torture and intimidation.

First of all, most testimonies are actually not as conflicting as you seem to think. Granted, some are probably wrong, but we're talking a vast minority. As for the commonly accepted version of events, not only do we have both sides with agreeing testimonies (including, might I add, a large number of Nazis who were not tortured), but we also have documents, photos and other hard evidence that is in complete agreement with said version of events.

All in all, I don't consider it wholly reliable.

That does not mean it cannot ever be taken into account.

and it's important to note that it was presented as evidence of Nazi atrocity at the post war trial

In a single tiny part of a single testimony. That does not make it automatically widely accepted as fact, it just proves that Holocaust deniers are masters of cherry-picking.

and did, in fact, if you bother to look into the issue yourself, persist as a myth for many years even after it was proven to be a fabrication.

Which proves? When I say commonly accepted, I'm not referring to urban legends. I'm referring to actual historians who agree that this was a thing that happened, which so far is not what I've found.

there is no evidence the Holocaust did not happen

Are you even listening to yourself right now?

There is also no evidence that aliens did not build the pyramids.

You have not given hard evidence. You have linked to a wiki page that showed documents pertaining to train schedules and internment accounting, along with a reconstructed course of events taken from, again, witness testimony. None of it proves conclusively that gassings occurred on a mass scale.

You have to understand that a narrative has been established, and that by default, according to this narrative, the holocaust is true and it is the doubters who are, apparently, stupid.

Have you forgotten where the burden of proof must lie?

Name one hard piece of evidence that proves without a doubt that millions of people were gassed to death. One thing.

Are you even listening to yourself right now?

I fail to see the issue. There is evidence that proves the Holocaust happened, and none that would prove it didn't. It's that simple.

There is also no evidence that aliens did not build the pyramids.

Actually, we do have a lot of evidence that pretty much objectively proves it was built by the Egyptians, and used as a tomb (and also monument).

You have not given hard evidence. You have linked to a wiki page that showed documents pertaining to train schedules and internment prisoners, along with a reconstructed course of events taken from, again, witness testimony. None of it proves conclusively that gassings occurred.

Did you even read what I wrote? Are photos now not a legitimate source? What about the many, many other documents than just "train schedules". What about the Einsatzgruppen? What about the fact that we've clearly found quite a bit of cyanide residue in the gas chambers? If none of this is somehow acceptable, then I honestly have no idea what could possibly change your mind, since there is physically no possible kind of evidence that you would find acceptable.

You have to understand that a narrative has been established, and that by default, according to this narrative, the holocaust is true and it is the doubters who are, apparently, stupid.

It's almost as if... you are required to prove your argument! Again, since you seem so hard set on this claim, I ask again what evidence there is that the Holocaust never happened. In the same way that if you claim the moon landing never happened, you need proof of your claim, the same thing goes for Holocaust denial.

Name one hard piece of evidence that proves without a doubt that millions of people were gassed to death. One thing.

I have named many. Pick one.

You're basically telling me to prove that it didn't happen.

I might as well give up and just believe in Hitler's "Final Solution"

... except that apparently somebody has been calling "Final Solution" wolf since at least 40 years before the war even started.

"The Russian government's studied policy for the "solution" of the Jewish question -- 1906

http://servv89pn0aj.sn.sourcedns.com/~gbpprorg/obama/nytimes_ww2/101771056.jpg

"$1,000,000" for the reconstruction of Jewry, to the tune of 6 millon - 1918

http://servv89pn0aj.sn.sourcedns.com/~gbpprorg/obama/nytimes_ww2/666t.jpg

6,000,000 Jews threatened by anti-semitism in America - 1938

http://servv89pn0aj.sn.sourcedns.com/~gbpprorg/obama/nytimes_ww2/6milltotalt.jpg

6,000,000 dead... as of January 1945 - before the war was even concluded?

http://servv89pn0aj.sn.sourcedns.com/~gbpprorg/obama/nytimes_ww2/jewmadeup.jpg

The list of old news articles prominently featuring the magical 6 million figure goes on and on.

As far as I'm concerned, all I see is one giant sympathy driven money machine.

You're basically telling me to prove that it didn't happen.

Yes. I'm asking you to show me something that would prove the Holocaust did not happen. I'm asking you to show me the evidence that lead to your conclusion in the first place.

So the only evidence you have for this is articles which mention both Jews and the number 6 million, which are taken out of context? In fact, let's look closer at these articles.

Article 1

Fun fact, the actual Jewish population of the Russian empire at the time was 5,215,805. So it's not especially out there for such a number to be there.

Article 2

It actually explains how they reached this number in the article itself

• "From reports from representatives abroad it is estimated that of the 9,000,000 to 12,000,000 souls making up the Jewish population of the world, exclusive of the 3,000,000 Jews in the United States, a quarter of the number are destitute, starving, and homeless, and a full half will need assistance to become self-supporting again."

So again, they aren't just pulling this number out of thin air.

Article 3

• "which has deprived more than 6,000,000 Jews and non-Aryans of their birthright"

So they didn't even specify 6 million Jews in this one.

Article 4

This is perhaps the only article that could be argued, however it really does look like nothing more than a well calculated estimate. On top of this, this is a single article that talks about 6,000,000 Jews in terms of casualties of the Holocaust, and if over the course of 40 years, this is all there is, then it's not exactly proof that this was all agreed upon by Jews.

As far as I'm concerned, all I see is one giant sympathy driven money machine.

First of all, you say that like it somehow proves the Holocaust didn't happen. Secondly, I really hope your evidence for this is more than just headlines.

I don't even have time anymore to point out the chain of logical fallacies you are ignoring in your own arguments.

I'm telling you there is not very good evidence that it did happen, you're telling me there's not very good evidence that it didn't happen.

okay

I'm telling you there is not very good evidence that it did happen

I just gave you an entire list. How is that still not good enough?

you're telling me there's not very good evidence that it didn't happen.

It's almost as if you have the burden of proof to prove your theory. Like I said, this is no different then if someone claims the moon landing didn't happen, in the sense that we still need evidence of said claim.

Ok. I'll start giving you reasons for doubt.

Exhibit A

World Almanacs demonstrate that the Jewish Population around the world INCREASED during the supposed Holocaust. Explain where the dead 6 million went?

Meyers Handlexicon, Germany 1921 -- 11,600,000

World Almanac, 1925, pg. 752 -- 15,630,000, "In 1925 a census of Palestine gave a total of 115,151 Jews"

World Almanac, 1929, pg. 727 -- 15,630,000

National Council of Churches 1930 -- 15,600 ,000

March 24, 1933, Jewish newspaper Daily Express -- 14,000,000 Jews worldwide

World Almanac, 1933, pg. 419 -- 15,316,359, ["The estimate for Jews in the above table is for 1933, and is by the American Jewish Committee"

World Almanac, 1936, pg. 748 -- world Jewish population = 15,753,633

World Almanac, 1938, pg. 510 -- world Jewish population = 15,748,091, with 240,000 in Germany

American Jewish Committee Bureau of the Synagogue Council, 1939 -- 15,600,000

World Almanac, 1940, pg. 129: World Jewish Population -- 15,319,359

World Almanac, 1941, pg. 510: World Jewish Population -- 15,748,091

World Almanac, 1942, pg. 849: World Jewish Population -- 15,192,089 ("Jews include Jews by race not necessarily by religion")

World Almanac USA, 1947, pg. 748: World Jewish Population -- 15,690,000

World Almanac, 1949, pg. 289: World Jewish Population -- 15,713,638

Statistical Handbook of Council of Churches USA 1951 -- 15,300,000

Encyclopedia Britannica's 1955 Book of the Year -- 11,627,450, "Jewish figures include all Jews whether members of a synagogue or not"

World Almanac, US News & World Report, 1983 population of Jews -- 16,820,850

World Almanac, 1996, pg. 646: World Jewish Population -- 14,117,000

World Almanac & Book of Facts, 1989: World Jewish Population --18,080,000

World Almanac & Book of Facts, 2001: World Jewish Population -- 13,200,000

Nazis Evacuate Two Million Jews from German Held Territory

Total World Population of Jews 1938 & 1948

World Almanac, 1949, pg. 289: World Jewish Population -- 15,713,638

Fun fact, that's an outright lie. The actual number given is 11,266,600. Also, if you read the actual pages, you'd see that at the top it outright admits that the figures from 1939-48 were from 1939 estimates. So in other words, the reason the numbers don't change is that the data didn't change either.

Statistical Handbook of Council of Churches USA 1951 -- 15,300,000

This can probably be explained in much the same way as the previous one.

Nazis Evacuate Two Million Jews from German Held Territory

Is this a headline?

Total World Population of Jews 1938 & 1948

Source?

I really hope exhibit B hold more water than this.

Turns out, you're not wholly wrong, but there is more to this disparity than mentioned before.

The estimate you are referring to is on page 204, it was provided by the American Jewish Committee.

The estimate referred to earlier is from the World Almanac association itself. The fact that it coincides with the Council of Church's estimate is telling...

There is already a writeup of this issue:

The World Almanac series of books sometimes provided two sets of figures for the world Jewish population. One came from the AJC (American Jewish Committee), and the other is the World Almanac's own estimation.

1933 : 15,316,359 (AJC), page 419
1934 : ???
1935 : ???
1936 : 15,753,633, page 748
1937 : ???
1938 : 15,748,091 (AJC), page 510
1939 : uses 1938 data
1940 : 15,290,983 (AJC), page 519; 15,319,359 (Almanac), page 129
1941 : uses 1938 data
1942 : 15,192,089, page 849
1943 : uses 1942 data
1944 : uses 1942 data
1945 : 15,688,259 (AJC), page 494; 15,xxx,xxx (Almanac), page xxx
1946 : uses 1945 data (AJC), page 488; 15,xxx,xxx (Almanac), page xxx
1947 : uses 1945 data (AJC), page 219; 15,690,000 (Almanac), page 748
1948 : uses 1945 data (AJC), page 249; 15,753,638 (Almanac), page 849
1949 : n/a (AJC); 15,713,638 (Almanac), page 289
1950 : n/a (AJC); n/a (Almanac)

In 1949, the AJC didn't provide an estimation for that year, instead, they revised the number of Jews for 1939 and 1947:

1949 AJC revision for 1939 : 16,643,120, page 204
1949 AJC revision for 1947 : 11,266,600, page 204

After 1949, the World Almanac discontinued providing their own estimations, instead, they only reported the numbers given by AJC. In 1950, the AJC didn't provide an estimation for that year, instead, they revised the number of Jews for 1948:

1950 AJC revision for 1948 : 11,373,000, page 473

So, let's brief this quickly. The last available pre-war number comes from 1938. In 1940, they somehow got a new estimation. In 1941, they use the 1938 number, not the 1940 number. In 1942, they got a new estimation, which was then used in both the 1943 and 1944 versions, until the war ended and they made a new estimation for 1945, which was then used for 1946, 1947 and 1948. In 1949, the Almanac made an estimation of their own, whereas the AJC decided to revise the 1947 number instead.

15,688,259 - 11,266,600 = 4,421,659

Hmm, 4.4 million missing Jews. No, that can't be right. We all knew 6 million died before the Nuremberg Trials began anyway. So what to do? Well, the AJC had a great idea! They revised the 1939 number by adding 1 million Jews.

895,029 to be precise. So:

4,421,659 + 895,029 = 5,316,688

Bingo. The official Holocaust story goes that somewhere from 5.4 to 6 million Jews died. The number was predetermined and the AJC played along. Somehow they knew, 10 years later in 1949, that the 1938 and 1939 numbers were wrong. No mention of their source, no mention of their methodology used. They just changed the number. Poof.

Historians will tell you the added one million Jews comes from the Wannsee Conference, where the Nazis counted 11,000,000 Jews in Europe, but it is known that this number was exaggerated by roughly two million, therefore their point is moot. The additional one million are imaginary Jews, added for the sole purpose of having more Jews killed on paper. This is one of the essential bits of the lie that six million Jews died, but as we can, it couldn't possibly be six million, but 4.4 million maximum.

Now, this doesn't mean 4.4 million Jews died, because they didn't, it's just that most Jews after the war spread all over the world, took gentile names and became crypto-Jews. What's more, the AJC stopped reporting the actual number of Jews for current years, instead, they reported for two years back. Starting with 1949 when they "revised" the 1947 number, then in 1950 when they "revised" the 1948 number. They just kept "revising" the number of Jews two years back, ignoring the actual numbers. I wonder why?

Nazis Evacuate Two Million Jews from German Held Territory

That was the missing link

And lastly, let us not forget the initial Red Cross report at the end of the war

http://www.rense.com/general69/factua.htm

http://truedemocracyparty.net/wp-content/uploads/auschwitz.jpg

The 6 million tally is a result of unreliable reports. There is no forensic evidence for 6 million deaths.

In 1949, the AJC didn't provide an estimation for that year, instead, they revised the number of Jews for 1939 and 1947: 1949 AJC revision for 1939 : 16,643,120, page 204 1949 AJC revision for 1947 : 11,266,600, page 204

So in other words, they fixed the error, and used more accurate data.

After 1949, the World Almanac discontinued providing their own estimations, instead, they only reported the numbers given by AJC. In 1950, the AJC didn't provide an estimation for that year, instead, they revised the number of Jews for 1948:

Same thing happening here.

So, let's brief this quickly. The last available pre-war number comes from 1938. In 1940, they somehow got a new estimation.

Considering the change, I'd say it wasn't particularly "new". This is further shown by them even admitting that said year's numbers were based of 1939 data.

Hmm, 4.4 million missing Jews. No, that can't be right. We all knew 6 million died before the Nuremberg Trials began anyway.

We've been over the issues with that assumption already.

Bingo. The official Holocaust story goes that somewhere from 5.4 to 6 million Jews died. The number was predetermined and the AJC played along. Somehow they knew, 10 years later in 1949, that the 1938 and 1939 numbers were wrong. No mention of their source, no mention of their methodology used. They just changed the number. Poof.

So your argument is that it's within a million of 6 million, so it must be exactly 6 million? Also, even if we have the 4 million number, how could you possibly account for even that many deaths without gas chambers and the Einsatzgruppen? Finally, just because they revise an estimate does not magically mean that it's all a conspiracy. Numbers change, and information surfaces, which is likely what happened. Don't ask me what happened, but there are no shortage of possible reasons (i.e. didn't account for non-religious Jews).

Now, this doesn't mean 4.4 million Jews died, because they didn't,

So even though your conclusions lead you to 4.4 million, you still refuse to accept even that number?

it's just that most Jews after the war spread all over the world, took gentile names and became crypto-Jews.

[Citation needed]

What's more, the AJC stopped reporting the actual number of Jews for current years, instead, they reported for two years back. Starting with 1949 when they "revised" the 1947 number, then in 1950 when they "revised" the 1948 number. They just kept "revising" the number of Jews two years back, ignoring the actual numbers. I wonder why?

Probably because they were fixing any errors. It seems like you're just grasping at straws here ("They changed the number at one point! It must be a conspiracy"). If this is what your theory is based on, then you failed to account for the fact that statistics can change due to data. For example, incomplete data will give you a number that is completely off.

Nazis Evacuate Two Million Jews from German Held Territory[1]

You do know what they're referring to in this right? They aren't sending the Jews to Madagascar, they're sending them to the camps in the East. This actually disproves your theory.

And lastly, let us not forget the initial Red Cross report at the end of the war

It's almost as if this document dealt with the same issues as the World Almanac. If you don't believe me about this, here are statistics on the Syrian Civil war. Notice how the numbers vary by tens of thousands (which is quite a bit considering the estimated death tolls)?

[deleted]

Lol. What's your source for this?

The Krakow report

• Markiewicz and his team used microdiffusion techniques to test for cyanide in samples from the suspected gas chambers, from delousing chambers, and from control areas elsewhere within Auschwitz. The control samples tested negative, while cyanide residue was found in high concentrations in the delousing chambers, and lower concentrations in the homicidal gas chambers. This is consistent with the amounts required to kill lice and humans.

[deleted]

Lol. And you realize they tested in 1990 and got the opposite result as the '94 whitewash report?

I find it interesting that despite this alleged report not being made public, deniers somehow got their hands on a copy that is of such shitty resolution, it's not even funny. Frankly, the fact that all of two sites (of which both are Holocaust denial) on the entirety of the web seem to know this makes me skeptical of exactly how legitimate this document is (especially considering how easy it would be to fake that first page, which is also the only page they show)

You realize the arguments about different amounts of cyanide being explained by different amounts necessary to kill lice and humans is utterly retarded?

Are you saying that every organism is equally susceptible to everything? Because that's even more retarded. The concentrations needed to kill lice are different than that for humans, it's pretty simple.

[deleted]

I read the documents, I just find that the title page seems like it was hastily typed on a typewriter, followed by a pretty much illegible stamp that's claimed to be from the Auschwitz museum, seems kinda sketchy. On top of this, the fact that there are only two sites that even acknowledge it's existence, doesn't exactly help.

[deleted]

I read the Rudolf report, it just makes the identical errors as the Leuchter report, and likely had at least some bias in the experiments design/testing.

[deleted]

He does the identical errors. And if you actually knew anything about chemistry, you'd realize the issues.

His video convinced me the holocaust is a holohoax. There's too many holes for me to give the traditionalist story any credit. Not somewhere I wanted to go, but facts are facts. It's a myth and a scam that jews have played like a fiddle for their own financial and political benefit.

...and did you move onto the hating of Jews, black people and being a Nazi immediately after that, or did you hold those other beliefs prior to watching the documentary, so that holocaust denial just seemed like a natural additional belief set to add to your collection??

I posted something about this a few months ago.

https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/2f2ooe/the_treblinka_archaeology_hoax_2014/

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it did use "np.reddit....." you fucking stupid bot.

The 16.5 million figure accounts for all the engineered famines that took place from 1917 until WWII. A great sin of Western historiography is to view the Holodomor as a singular event in 1933, and that aside from that year, things were fine for Christians in the USSR. This is patently false.

Your infatuation with the myth of 6 million means that my efforts are wasted on you. Hopefully some day you will realize that not even Jews believe that figure; they acknowledge it as symbolic, and as a continuation of the longstanding numerical tradition of Jews claiming 6 million of their kind persecuted by the Czars.

I would hope that those articles at the top of the list would be objective examinations of history, not emotion-ridden appeals written by those who have the most to gain from perpetuating the Holocaust myth.

These numbers are not based in reality.

trying too hard.

Sorry to interrupt your bullshit with evidence:

See 1938: 8,900,000 Jews in Europe

See 1948: 9,400,000 Jews in Europe

The other 5,999,999, 6,000,000 (TM) dissapeared into the non-existent Gas Chambers in Auschwitz.

He's talking about the supposed mass graves of the 2 million killed by EG

• The operation also returned to the scenes of earlier mass killings such as Babi Yar, Ponary, the Ninth Fort, as well as Bronna Góra. By 1944, with Soviet armies advancing, SS-Obergruppenführer Wilhelm Koppe, head of the Reichsgau Wartheland ordered that each of the five districts of General Government territory set up its own Aktion 1005 commando to begin "cleaning" mass graves. The operations were not entirely successful as the advancing Soviet troops reached some of the sites before they could be cleared.

Would you accept the photos I gave of Sonderaktion 1005 in my other response to you? If not I can use something else.

No Im not saying I don't accept your explanations. I mean that we could go on with interpretations forever.

I would just like to reduce the discussion to hard empirical evidence.

As for witness testimony, there are too many conflicting accounts, and like I mentioned many German confessions were extracted by torture and intimidation. All in all, I don't consider it wholly reliable. If you can't do much better than that, then a doubter such as myself could conclude that it's all just hear-say.

I showed you the link to the lampshade and soap article because you mentioned that you had never heard of them, and it's important to note that it was presented as evidence of Nazi atrocity at the post war trial and did, in fact, if you bother to look into the issue yourself, persist as a myth for many years even after it was proven to be a fabrication.

You're basically telling me to prove that it didn't happen.

Yes. I'm asking you to show me something that would prove the Holocaust did not happen. I'm asking you to show me the evidence that lead to your conclusion in the first place.

So the only evidence you have for this is articles which mention both Jews and the number 6 million, which are taken out of context? In fact, let's look closer at these articles.

Article 1

Fun fact, the actual Jewish population of the Russian empire at the time was 5,215,805. So it's not especially out there for such a number to be there.

Article 2

It actually explains how they reached this number in the article itself

• "From reports from representatives abroad it is estimated that of the 9,000,000 to 12,000,000 souls making up the Jewish population of the world, exclusive of the 3,000,000 Jews in the United States, a quarter of the number are destitute, starving, and homeless, and a full half will need assistance to become self-supporting again."

So again, they aren't just pulling this number out of thin air.

Article 3

• "which has deprived more than 6,000,000 Jews and non-Aryans of their birthright"

So they didn't even specify 6 million Jews in this one.

Article 4

This is perhaps the only article that could be argued, however it really does look like nothing more than a well calculated estimate. On top of this, this is a single article that talks about 6,000,000 Jews in terms of casualties of the Holocaust, and if over the course of 40 years, this is all there is, then it's not exactly proof that this was all agreed upon by Jews.

As far as I'm concerned, all I see is one giant sympathy driven money machine.

First of all, you say that like it somehow proves the Holocaust didn't happen. Secondly, I really hope your evidence for this is more than just headlines.