Religion and spirituality are two separate things. Religion is a tool (and weapon) used to control people. Spirituality is what you're looking for and before you can truly find the path to the truth, you need to reject all of humanity's religions and associated dogma.

Have you researched the history of the Vatican and RCC? The Knights Templar? It isn't a good one.

I agree with you that there has been an active campaign to destroy religion, spirituality, and morality in modern times but if you tell yourself that organized religion hasn't been used as a tool of oppression and control for thousands of years then you're just lying to yourself.

There is a reason for this.

op knows that religion has been used as a tool to control others, he is asking us to forget about that part of it and use the inherent truths in spiritual texts such as the bible to see past the negativity associated with it and empower ourselves, overcome fear, live in the moment etc...

we all know the elite have used any means they can to control us, but they does not mean there isn't benefit in the correctly interpreted teachings of Jesus

i applaud your intention and effort here OP

I was referring to OP's reference to "researching the history" and also to the fact that nowhere in the OP was it stated that organized religion has been used as a tool of control for thousands of years.

I agree with you completely that there are truths and value to be gleaned from all religions.

nowhere in the OP was it stated that organized religion has been used as a tool of control for thousands of years

Culture in general has been used as a tool of control for thousands of years. The very allegory of material existence is itself a tool of control. it goes without saying. Dismissing books like the bible because of the Catholic bureaucracy is a mistake. Even if the bible itself has been completely misrepresented with intent, one can read it with that in mind.

Specifically the words attributed to Jesus are completely misrepresented by those who wish to use them as a tool of control and those that attack those that use them as a tool of control. Forget the both of them.

I agree with this also. I don't think anything I said implies that there is no truth to be found in the Bible or religions in general and, if I did imply that, that wasn't my intention.

I just think that one should take into account things like the council of Nicaea and the obvious globalist agenda of the Vatican/Jesuits when discussing religion (and Christianity, in general, which seems to be the main focus of this thread).

It is ironic how unChristian the Vatican is.

All that goes without saying. Tools of control are known about by most humans by now. It's moot to mention these points every time a topic warrants it.

How can you have a true discussion about Christianity without acknowledging any the history of the church/corporation that speaks in its name? That seems shortsighted. Also, I think you're incorrect about "most humans" being aware of the extent of the control that exists and has existed for thousands of years. Many are not, and this includes a lot of those who identify as religious as well as many on this sub.

I think a lot of Christians would be surprised if they read about the actions throughout the centuries of the Vatican, the Knights Templar, the Society of Jesus, etc.

that speaks in its name? That seems shortsighted

I agree with that.. but what makes up the vast majority of the profound and simple truth expressed is MORE often overlooked than the failure of a church or corporation to hide it. People hide it from themselves as a final point of acceptance. I'm guilty of it myself.. Sitting here in /r/conspiracy. The big subjective conspiracy is my own ego, a substance-less nothing, is keeping "me" from directly experiencing Truth itself.

Who or what have i given my power over to? A self-serving ego bent on self preservation. A temporal lie non-existing in eternal Reality.

A self-serving ego bent on self preservation.

Yep. We all are guilty of this to some extent and it doesn't help that those who would manipulate and control us are also aware of this and how our egos can be used against us/for them.

Illusions and lies all the way down... and all the way up.

good comment. also, if we focus so much on what was, and how it was so awful, are we not doomed to the same? if we draw so much energy and attention to what we do not want, will we ever get what we truly do want? my perception is no.

What the fuck is going on in this thread?

Some encouragement for self introspection. Don't be alarmed.

The three great cities: one controls the money, one controls the military, and one controls the religion, the complete unholy trinity.

This might be a little off topic but does anyone else feel that the Roman Empire never fell, but instead was branched into different governments/entities around the world. This would ensure that the goals that Rome wished to achieve; these three cities being an example of the continued Roman Empire and how it has progressed throughout the world, continuing its never ending quest for more power.

Or it fell, and there's a new Roman Empire that was created after it, involving multiple countries/entities.

Hmm, where have I seen an Eagle used as a symbol before?

I mean just look at the architecture of the Capitol Building in D.C.

It is important to know architectural history. The great monuments to American Presidents are built in the tradition of Greek and Roman temples, and most churches today are usually built along the tradition of Roman courthouses.

Strange to most Americans is the continuity from Rome to Byzantine and then Islamic rule. Mehmed II, conqueror of Constantinople, declared himself Emperor of Rome and Caesar, and was the son of a Roman mother with imperial descent, and had a fair claim. One can see clearly that many great and wonderful Mosques are built along the same design as the Hagia Sophia, one of the greatest churches in Christian history.

While Europe was in a "dark ages" and suffered centuries of declining population and literary, economic, and scientific production, this never happened in the Islamic world which maintained its continuity and built on Roman achievements, albeit under the control of a new religion and military elite.

In all perfect honesty, and not skewing the facts at all, Islamic theocracy and architecture bears more continuity and relation to the late Christianized Eastern Roman Empire, whereas Americans can only evoke a relation through poor imitation. America's republican system bears little if any resemblance to that of ancient Rome or Greece, and actually has its roots in the Norse 'Thing' as synthesized with English (Germanic) monarchy. It's no wonder that America wants to evoke images of Rome and the way it is remembered in European history, because it's always known for its vast power.

Also, it's also ironic that our architecture evokes the ruins of Greek and Roman structures, emptied, barren, and unpainted, very unlike a reconstruction of the legitimate thing.

Yep, it's actually pretty overt to anyone who cares to notice.

Even our system of government is so relatable to the Romans it's absolutely insane.

Only the names have changed, it's still many of the same aristocratic European bloodlines running the show today that were in power 2000 years ago. We've all been lied to on a scale so impossibly massive that most people can't even wrap their heads around it.

You fell into the progress trap. Reflect now about what could happen if e.g. John Michael Greer is right. Would another you 500 years in the future think and feel the same? Or had you felt the same 1352 in Strasbourg?

I have the same feeling. Sometimes I ponder about which country is the Eastern Rome. Indonesia, b/c they have a Latin alphabet and are constructing their Nationality right now? Or India, as it was a part the Empire. Who will be the hordes? Who the Vandals? Moscow sees itself as the true cultural and functional follower of Byzantium.

Only one thing is clear, we absolutely know what and where the Senate is. It even has the same name...

Religion has been used as a weapon. He is not arguing that nor do I believe anyone on this thread will deny that much. This however does not mean that god ceases to exist or that god is dead.

This however does not mean that god ceases to exist or that god is dead.

I neither said nor implied either of those things, nor do I believe either to be true.

Im glad we understand each other :)

Have you researched the history of the Vatican

Catholicism is rooted in control, one that favors the rich and powerful.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/vatican-rents-out-sistine-chapel-for-corporate-event/

Christianity as a whole is being exploited & actively monetized by countless false prophets. They want tithes and tribute, rather than real change. God deserves the glory, not the people of this earth - whose life can be taken away at any second.

No they haven't because it contradicts what OP wants to believe

you are misunderstanding op's point here

I have a major in comparative religion, so my rejection of religion is hardly knee-jerk. I've studied religions large and small in great detail. Major religions were largely shaped by political forces looking to use them for control. That is a historical fact. Look up the Council of Nicea. The "holy" books of the three major western religions condone rape, murder, incest, genocide, slavery, the persecution of homosexuals, and the oppression of women in the name of their god. Eastern religions have their problems too, but I won't go into that at the moment as it isn't as relevant for most people reading this.

Having said all of that, I am not closed to the possibility of a spiritual aspect of reality. I simply know from extensive research than any true spirituality which may have once existed in the world's major religions has been mostly buried by forces that most certainly do not desire liberation for the human condition.

the thing burying truth 1000s of years ago is the same thing now. Egos. And so say the objects of most religions.

contempt prior to investigation

I've only ever heard that in one place. Have you read Bill W's book?

It's a foolish statement. One is just hamstringing himself to reject any idea of community or shared wisdom, theology, or philosophy.

is the Religion vs Spirituality argument simply a issue of definitions? my communications teacher in college always said, "words dont mean, people mean." after i, myself, went through soul coaching, i finally began to understand the idea of "God" and that it's not a single definition, but an interchangeable word for everything, the universe, the source, etc. there are so many people that get caught up in what OUR (human's) definition of a word is.

Soul coaching?

well, it really boils down to learning what one's soul wants, and doing it. doing what really makes one happy, disregarding all of these social/cultural 'rules' and norms that most of us live, unknowingly or knowingly, day to day. it really is about making constant happiness achievable. it's questioning beliefs, it's changing habitual behaviors that don't serve us, it's really becoming a skeptic when it comes to what society tell us as right or wrong. there's a big lesson that i learned myself, that more-or-less says there is no right or wrong, only experiences. this might be getting more into a /r/psychonaut style post, but it's entirely relate-able when it comes to questioning our governments, questioning our society, questioning everything.

you ever seen the bumper stickers that say "question reality"? why go on, day to day with society whispering into our ears and breathing down our backs. when it comes down to it, our lives are completely and utterly about ourselves. that must not be construed in an egotistical way. hope i've given you some insight into the world of "soul coaching". some consider it silly, far-fetched, even... i don't, as it's changed my life and continues to do so. become aware, it'll change ya.

Thank you. That makes a lot of sense, and actually parallels my own path of seeking to dispel untruths from my conception of self and world.

The reason I asked was because "soul coaching" sounded like it could be a brainwashing cult type thing, but it seems quite the opposite.

LOL not going to lie, i thought the same when i first caught wind of the idea. the coach i meet with originally worked with me on career pathing/coaching, as i didn't finish college and am working in my family's business. she had years and years of HR experience, so that was helpful. then, i switched into the Soul Coaching aspect of it, and it helped me even more, in general. it's so interesting, everything i learn in coaching helps in every aspect of my life, not simply business or personal... thanks for being understanding! glad i could shed some insight into Soul Coaching.

The scientific method is the only way to the truth of all things and the irony is that by its very design it must be wrought with more failures than successes. It is a relentless fire which eventually destroys falsehoods both large and small. This path to the truth is a miserable and tedious one because it does not and cannot ever give an absolute answer to any question, it can only give us really reliable and evidence backed guesses.

Scientific method is the study of reproducible experiments. Not everything is a reproducible experiment.

I'm confident that there's only one path to truth and that is to look inside oneself. To read a religious book expressing truth is to be exposed to someone else's truth, not your own and is therefore missing the point.

That said, I don't mean to say that there is no value from religious books. Certainly understanding the multitudes of paths that you can follow is of value, but ultimately, if that path doesn't take you to the deepest realms of your own personal psyche to where the "you" connects to the divine, I feel that you're missing out.

Might I ask why you think dogma is necessary or not-separate from spirituality?

I personally think that while wisdom can be found in dogma (for those who can remove themselves from bias) it is not essential to spiritual development and/or growth. Besides, it is not about the destination ("Truth") it is about the journey. Dogma has little to do with the journey from my perspective.

many paths

Actually *ALL paths eventually lead to the same truth. Because there is only one truth. So where could any other path ultimately lead?

Relevant quote from Cloud Atlas:

Truth is singular. It's versions are mistruths.

Yea I truly don't give a single damn about people who see the value in slavery and selling children for livestock. Christianity is a stupid primitive religion. If you can't separate Dogma from Spirituality then you are also part of the programmed problem. It matters not a single bit that there are "good passages". My morality I'm born with is infinitely superior than what a ridiculous "god" dictates.

Lmfao "potential encryption"... I came here for the retardery, and you knocked this one out of the park. Holy shit I can't stop laughing.

It's not really the same truth though, now is it?

Jesus teaches you to put yourself below god, to always serve him. You're only allowed to be a tiny fraction of him, or in his image.

Buddha teaches you that you are also a god, and to not put yourself below or above anything else.

How is that the same truth?

incorrect, jesus taught that we all have the power of God in us , and through our devotion to resisting carnal desires, we gain spiritual power which gives us wisdom knowledge higher understanding. buddha essentially said the same thing, i dont care how enlightened you are, you are not GOD and you do not have all his power,,you are created in the image ..in the likeness ..so yes in essence you are a God on earth, but not the same as God in the universe.

this is the point OP is making, people are misunderstanding the true teachings of christ, because throughout history govts and elite have twisted it in to a fear based religion, when it was intended to be a way of freedom

I dont care how enlightened you are, you are not GOD and you do not have all his power,,you are created in the image ..in the likeness ..so yes in essence you are a God on earth, but not the same as God in the universe.

Here is my interpretation of what God is, and how we play a role. God is the all-inclusive infinite. We are not only a piece of that infinite, it is impossible to separate us from it. This idea that we are somehow removed from the infinite has clouded our minds and judgement to forget all is of the same source.

This is where the idea of freedom, freewill, and individualism comes into play. In the scope of an infinite view there are seemingly two opposing forces, creation and destruction. Or existence and non-existence. Existence (creation) seeks expansion of all possibilities through the means of individual points, or identities. Non-existence (destruction) seeks to collapse individual points down to a singularity.

It's the old battle of 'good vs. evil'.

i never said we are seperate from him ...of course we are litearally living in the energy of god...however we are not equal to his power ..we have forgotten the godly power he has given us

What if God is the universe?

just like we are the universe to our cells in our body..i understand and agree with your viewpoint ..we are a part of god a piece of it...a hologram...i am just saying we are not equal to him

Fair enough. I agree that it is more or less undeniable that there is "something more", an infinite intelligence/infinite energy, that pervades everything.

Then we are idolizing ourselves, as we are part of the universe. Oops.

No, above all jesus teaches you to be subservient to an all powerful being, and to never question it. He also teaches kindness and acceptance, yes, but you must serve your one true lord to be "saved".

The buddha did not teach even close to the same thing. For one, questioning is a core principal of buddhism. They're incompatible philosophies. They have similar messages about humility and being kind, but they don't preach the same thing.

you are misunderstanding his teaching as an excuse to disregard it ...the main point of the OP

Jesus teaches us of the infinite with the emphasis on the external sturcture.

Buddha teaches us about the infinite with the emphasis on the internal structure.

Same message, there is an infinite, different focus. Although both of these messengers of the infinite talked of internal and external realities, history has pigeonholed their revelations.

The different focus is precisely why they aren't the same message.

You can't compare the promise of the infinite under the condition of subjugation, to the promise of the infinite under the condition of liberation, it doesn't work like that.

They're two different messages that focus on two different ways of thinking.

Jesus: do unto others

Buddha: life is suffering

When does the buddha ever say that everyone is a god? Humility is a huge part of buddhism and there are offerings made and prostrations going on all the time across pretty much every lineage except the silly dharma bum crap we get in america.

Divine spark.

http://www.baytallaah.com/osholibrary/reader.php?page=1&book=The%20Heart%20Sutra

Perhaps not god in the christian sense, but that's a loaded term anyway. I was trying to show you that these teachings aren't really compatible. christianity forces your subjugation towards another being, buddhism says never be subjugated.

Nowhere in the heart sutra are we taught that we are buddhas. The text in your link referring to innate buddhahood is not from the sutra. If we're going to start using commentaries as actual teachings any number of bizarre things could be argued.

I'd argue that buddhism prescribes more subjugation. It is a constant effort to tame the conceptual mind which is "you" for the majority of us. Is this not subjugating the sinner through different methods? With good old new testament JC you take him into your heart once and you're done with the whole thing.

In tibetan buddhism they perform all sorts of rituals for deities, protectors and local gods. In hinduism they accept their guru as a divine incarnation.

The primary goal of buddhism is to relieve subjugation. There's no effort to tame made, that action would be a manifestation of your ego. It's about liberating your point of perspective/soul/true essence from the ideas that you have and what you think makes up "you", while giving no judgement or distinction, other than that those things aren't really you.

Tibetan buddhism also teaches, in a tenuous way, that the gods are inside yourself, and that you must recognize their appearance as you. Like it's stated in the tibetan book of the dead, when the gods appear to the traveler, they must recognize the god's presence and radiance as their own to be liberated.

regarding the op. It's disingenuous to say that all religions teach to serve a higher power, because buddhism does not. And I don't see christianity teaching people to how to detach from their sense of self. Detaching from material items is taught, but it doesn't necessarily go much further than that.

you need to reject all of humanity's religions and associated dogma.

Don't so much "reject" them. Instead, simply realize that they are only a part of the tapestry of cosmic spirituality. It's like rejecting a tree because it is not the forest. Doesn't make sense.

Don't reject the tree - just realize that it is by no means the entire forest. Look at it as what it is - part of a bigger, MUCH bigger, picture.

I disagree. Religions must be rejected actively because they disseminate false information, are intrinsically violent and take advantage of everybody, especially the poor and the most vulnerable. They are against the advancement of proper knowledge and scientific discoveries, at least partly because all discoveries go against the stupid teachings from their stupid books and help debunks all the myths in which their whole structure is set up.

Where did you get that preposterous idea from? Religion completely lines up with science. Science wishes to remove its ties to religion but cannot.

I disagree. Religions must be rejected actively because they disseminate false information

That is a universal, unqualified comment which quite simply doesn't apply. Religion disseminates a lot of false information, but that's not ALL it does. If it did, then it simply wouldn't be as successful as it has been. There is a lot about many religions that have a core of truth and correctness to them. To reject that also is like throwing out the baby with the bath water - missing the forest for the trees.

You must learn how to be discerning, be a critical thinker, and sift the wheat from the chaff where it regards information you come across.

Religion is like training wheels for those that are just beginning to understand spirituality. Training wheels are VERY important for those who don't know how to actually ride a bike yet. They definitely have their place. Without them, many people would get a lot more injured than they do.

When you learn how to ride a bike, then you can discard the training wheels - not before though. Similarly, after you learn some of the core truths and tenets that many religions do have, then you can discard with the chaff and move on to further development.

I wouldn't say that discarding religion en toto is the wisest, most intelligent thing to do, however.

are intrinsically violent and take advantage of everybody

I know quiet a few people that are religiously devout who are the very opposite of what you describe here. But ONE example alone does away with what you're saying here - and I know of several people and examples that prove the universality of your statement summarily wrong.

They are against the advancement of proper knowledge and scientific discoveries

Religion is generally against that which can entirely undermine it. Many scientific discoveries and proper knowledge DON'T entirely undermine it, however - and those types of discoveries many religions actually embrace.

all discoveries go against the stupid teachings from their stupid books and help debunks all the myths in which their whole structure is set up.

There are various extremes in life - almost any one of which should be stayed far, far away from. There is religious extremism that doesn't understand or believe in anything that is not specifically quoted in the little books that adherents unquestioningly genuflect before. That's not good. On the other hand, however, there are also the types of people that just as ignorantly and unthinkingly discard anything and everything having to do with religion, not understanding the many aspects of it that are embedded in validity.

Both, again, should be stayed away from. Middle-of-the-road critical thinking should be the order of the day.

Reject the tree because it is false, it was created and spread as a representation of the forest but is someone else's interpretation. Religion is a joke, and spirituality is our way to recognize the fakes.

http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/2jvtm6/if_youre_immediately_dismissing_any_spiritual/clfzpyp

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I came here to say this too. Have an upvote.

Thanks! =-D

I was just having this conversation with a friend last night. He couldn't disconnect religion from spirituality and I had to change the subject because he's clearly not ready.

Is it not all semantics and that point anyway?

There is nothing wrong with religion.

Religion has kept most of the knowledge producing what you enjoy today safe regardless of historical atrocities which seem to state otherwise. The proof is literally in/on the physical objects religion deems sacred.

You need to reject humanities misconceptions and ignorance of everything to find the path to truth.

Religion is a tool (and weapon) used to control people.

That sounds matter of fact. Familiar with Jainism? Not that I subscribe to Jainism, but I would like to see you point to how that religion is a weapon (given the negative innuendo). Your statement above is something comparable to a bit in a horses mouth. It is, in fact, sensationalism. Sensationalism is often used to manipulate aka control. Just like a bit, you steer the reader to your point of view using their emotional bias against them. That said, I have a soft spot for Christopher Hitchens.

Religion, in the Christian sense, is a system of beliefs (systematic theology). Belief is synonymous with doctrine according to Millard J Erickson, Karl Barth, Charles Swindol, and practically everyone else that is studied in Protestant seminaries.

Google definition-

re·li·gion

the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. "ideas about the relationship between science and religion" synonyms: faith, belief, worship, creed

...you need to reject all of humanity's religions and associated dogma

Thank you for telling everyone what they need to do, but this is a silly thing to say. For one, "humanity's religions" will always apply to all theist systems except for the one that each particular person participates in. Obviously, they can't ALL be correct, but that is not a personal dilemma. It is rather a collective dilemma. Secondly, dogma is primarily a term used in Catholicism. Most protestants use the word doctrine. This allows people that do believe in "humanity's religions" to dismiss you as ignorant. Personally, I am ok with you using dogma here, but it is really a poor term to use in light of the theistic paradigm.

Religion and spirituality are two separate things.

Of course they are, but they always go together. Always. Discipleship is at the core of all major religions. To dismiss it, is to tell people to never study, listen, et hoc genus omne. It really doesn't make sense to say that spirituality is an exclusive term. It is different than religion, but how can one come to spiritual enlightenment without a set of beliefs (religion)?

I agree with the thrust of what OP says. His questions in the last paragraph are particularly well thought out and proper for self-reflection. Noping your way through the questions serve of zero value.

Most all major religions, and even the occult, have end time prophecies that could be used by tptb with great results using PSYOPS. On that basis alone is it not worth considering what they are all saying, especially in light of the Bohemian Grove Club, transhumanism, singularity, etc?

From the cover of "Exo-Vaticana: Petrus Romanus, Project L.U.C.I.F.E.R., and the Vatican's Astonishing Plan for the Arrival of an Alien Savior"-

Christians will not immediately need to renounce their faith in God "simply on the basis of the reception of [this] new, and unexpected information of a religious character from extraterrestrial civilizations." However, once the "religious content" originating from outside the earth "has been verified" they will have to conduct a "re-reading [of the Gospel] inclusive of the new data..."

• Vatican Astronomer (connected with Opus Dei), Father Giuseppe Tanzella-Nitti

You know who else said that? Jesus and Buddha. And you can read about it without proclaiming adherence to a bureaucratic religion created around them. While religion may be a weapon, it's one armed by the consumer.

You cannot be spiritual without being religious or vise virsa. That being said they are one and the same. Yes religion has been used as a weapon but that does not diminish the truth thereof. It does not mean that god doesn't exist just because the world is corrupt.

This thread has been linked to from elsewhere on reddit.

• [/r/SubredditDrama] "If you're immediately dismissing any spiritual discussions, you're part of the programmed problem."

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Anyone care to define spirituality?

So reject tools? Reject a screwdriver because someone else used it to stab another?

I agree entirely!

I would expound further and say that religion (from 'ligare' meaning to tie or bind, and 're' meaning again) is the antithesis of spirituality. Spirituality is a journey of self-discovery more than anything, finding freedom from dogma and a discovery of the truth no matter how strange it might seem. Spirituality is discovering one's own purpose through exploration, reflection, and contemplation. Religion is adopting a prefabricated belief system.

Religion was engineered for conformity, indoctrination, control, group-think, etc... These are very much opposed to any sense of individuality, which spirituality is all about in my opinion.

I used to ignore this kind of stuff but the more I read the more I realized that almost every conspiracy theory comes back to spirituality and the idea that we're all one.

I've really started to open up to the idea and honeslty I've become a happier person because of it.

/r/psychonaut provides a path

Thanks! Subbed.

I've really been wanting to experience DMT. I just don't know how to find it around here. I'm considering trying an extract myself.

/r/darknetmarkets

Or just assemble the materials and read a straight-to-base tek. It's really easy.

Please do if you feel called to it - you will certainly not be underwhelmed.

Research chemicals if you have no contacts. I just ordered 4-aco-dmt and its supposed to be very similar to DMT and mushrooms.

It is not similiar to DMT in any way, aside from sharing some atoms with it.

4-AcO is a little more like mushrooms, after awhile, but not the same.

That being said, 4-AcO-DMT should be in everyone's medicine cabinet.

thanks for the info! oh man I am getting so excited for my order!!

I highly recommend you get the fumerate from Fappy, if they have any. Although it can be found at various RC clearnet sites I guess.

I recommend you do a 20mg line, right after you swallow a 20mg capsule.

Very mellow. Very manageable. Much to teach you about yourself.

4-ACO is absolutely amazing. I was very pleasantly surprised.

DMT finds you.

Remember. It will find you, you won't find it.

A friend of mine told me this the other day. Said just be open to the possibility and the universe will find a way ;)

Namaste

It's true.. The rabbit hole gets to a certain depth and it becomes obvious that were being actively driven away from spirituality -- or maybe it's a more fundamental layer of reality.

Had my first ayahuasca session last weekend and... well... it tends to confirm that "more fundamental layer of reality" hypothesis.

Had my first ayahuasca session last weekend and... well... it tends to confirm that "more fundamental layer of reality" hypothesis.

Awesome! I've only ever had one experience with salvia but it was so intense that it completely stripped away my ego and all sense of self that I had. Being able to experience that is so humbling and definitely produces an instant change of perception.

All of that stuff that people say about psychadelics that sounds like bullshit is absoultely true and it usually only takes one experience to realize it. That's why it's illegal.

I'm jealous - how was it, if you don't mind sharing?

I've read some pretty crazy shit about ayahuasca before and have always wanted to try it.

It was impressive. I wrote the whole thing up here (long!): http://www.reddit.com/r/Ayahuasca/comments/2jd8ov/first_ayahuasca_ceremony_report_long/

But the tl;dr is that I strongly suspect there is a more fundamental layer of reality to which ayahuasca allows access. This is coming from a staunch materialist -- atheist, master's degree in mechanical engineering.

Damn, sounds wild man. It's incredible how many people have reported similar experiences with regards to "shared visions" among their group.

Definitely makes one think... I'd love to try it myself though I highly doubt that there are any ayahuasca retreats in or around NYC.

there are. upstate.

time to check out haramein!

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I just posted this elsewhere and thought you may benefit or enjoy:

We are the Universe experiencing itself. Thus, we are God. So, think of it this way: God splits at the Big Bang to experience infinity in all possible combinations. This requires delusion in order for our imaginations to procure all possibilities. However, for the continuation of Self, in order to reduce entropy, it slowly becomes aware of itself, and eventually, conscious singularity occurs. Upon this occurance, 'We', God, Life, Nirvana, Brahman, Reality, Motion, Infinity incarnate, can move to a Type 1 civilization.

Also, check out /r/singularity and /r/psychonaught(sp?) for more insight into the 'Human' condition. (Sp: spelling? on mobile; not sure.)

/r/holofractal is a subreddit dedicated to new science that proves the all is within each piece, much like the allegory of Indra's Net, or DNA in a cell.

Far away in the heavenly abode of the great god Indra, there is a wonderful net which has been hung by some cunning artificer in such a manner that it stretches out infinitely in all directions. In accordance with the extravagant tastes of deities, the artificer has hung a single glittering jewel in each "eye" of the net, and since the net itself is infinite in dimension, the jewels are infinite in number. There hang the jewels, glittering "like" stars in the first magnitude, a wonderful sight to behold. If we now arbitrarily select one of these jewels for inspection and look closely at it, we will discover that in its polished surface there are reflected all the other jewels in the net, infinite in number. Not only that, but each of the jewels reflected in this one jewel is also reflecting all the other jewels, so that there is an infinite reflecting process occurring.[7]

This is the vacuum singularity that every atom is continually being sustained by, and continually pushes energy in and out of, constantly.

We are the Universe experiencing itself. Thus, we are God. So, think of it this way: God splits at the Big Bang to experience infinity in all possible combinations. This requires delusion in order for our imaginations to procure all possibilities. However, for the continuation of Self, in order to reduce entropy, it slowly becomes aware of itself, and eventually, conscious singularity occurs. Upon this occurance, 'We', God, Life, Nirvana, Brahman, Reality, Motion, Infinity incarnate, can move to a Type 1 civilization.

I love this. Where do spirits come into play?

Depends on how you define what they are. A spirit in Japan follows a different mythos from the faye of Europe or the ghosts of the Americas... Etc. Tl;dr define your terms and I can tell you.

Nevermind.

Aw, but I want to expand on it! :(

Then do so. A spirit is a spirit. I'm not basing off any culture's definition because in the end there will be no difference. There will just be.

Now with the text I quoted in mind, do we, as one, beings of this one Being, have spirits?

Ah, you mean a soul. I would say the best answer to this would be the concept of Ta'veren found in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time. We are threads in a pattern, spun in when our time comes again. Never quite the same, but also the same in that we are serving a purpose, a function in each time we are spun in. All equally important. E.g. There is a messiah, one who can bring us to the realization of what we are. It must perform certain functions, such as the Breaking of the World as the result of revealing vernacular truth. However, other aspects of the messiah are volatile. E.g. where they are born, their name, how they are lead to their conclusions about reality, etc. The essence of the spirit, like reality itself, is both ever changing and ever the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmN2RL4VJsE

Watch this series if you haven't. Some pretty cool stuff. Take a lot with a grain of salt, but the unity spirituality idea is central to it.

I actually just started watching it the other day and have been enjoying it. AS you said I take a lot of it with a grain of salt, but there is also a ton of interesting info in there too.

I don't get all of the youtube commenters who see one little wrong word and focus on that. Look at the big picture and if the guy is wrong you're no worse off, you've just expanded your knowledge base.

I've watched that whole series over the course of the year. The guy seems very earnest, a little overly credulous, but not huckstery. I think the content of his message is spot on. I fear he is too quick to accept his huckster peers.

For instance, I think Nassim Haramein is an obvious fraud. Its clear he doesn't know any of the math he claims his theories are based on, and his examples of proving all the physicists in the room wrong are elementary (he has a balloon example he gives in some of his lectures where he misapplies a conceptual model and states that since physicists cannot explain who is filling up the balloon, then none of the current theories of gravity/mass/cosmology can be correct.) Patchman, on the other hand, offers Nassim's 'theories' as on par with any mainstream physico-mathematic theory of reality.

But, really, am I one to talk? I feel that the atlantean origins described throughout spirit science (themselves based on theosophy) are compelling if considered from the perspective of multidimensionality. For instance, the physical history/evolution of man follows a more or less standard progression, but the conscious aspect of man exists in eternity, and has actually experienced an atlantean state as it developed, prior to uniting with the current physical form. So we all got some crank in us.

except we're not... these are nice things to say to people... but time is limited... and there are people who enjoy their existence and there are those who do not. there are people who take arms against those who enjoy their existence because they have so much and they so little. Its the classic elite / plebian dichotomy.

But that stems from an even more fundamental dichotomy... there are people who know things that others do not... call it the wisdom gap. As long as someone knows something someone else doesn't know - and instead of bringing them up to their level of wisdom (which you would do if you do indeed follow the path of one mind), you use it to your advantage and their disadvantage.... then we are not one.

But what if we educate everyone... indeed what typically happens when one gets information that could give him what he/she desires that someone who has what he/she wants doesn't have? in the mindset of need, an animalistic desire, they use it to eat the other one and make their stuff his/her stuff by way of their actions. its classic patriarchal hierarchy. like fish in the ocean.. you get to the top by using the tools you have to eat the fish that dont have the tools to stop you.

our mythology tells of this fundamental problem in the human condition over and over... one of the first tales is that of ramses versus the jews... then of cain and abel.... of the people of seth vs the people of cain...which becomes the sons of seth (noah) vs the sons of cain... when the sons of cain are wiped out... seth is given knowledge that he ddistributes amongst his sons... and the wisdom gap is formed.

some might think it isn't good/evil.. it isn't rich/poor or light/dark.... its he and she. she made him and therefor we are just drones to her. but the only way she could make he was if she had just a little bit more knowledge than he... knowledge of how to build a robot that was essentially the same as her... but limited in its ability to perceive the dimension that gave her power. knowledge is information... and she has roughly 1/8 more DNA than we do, as well as the same DNA in all of our mithochondria.

We are in fact one. A lady inside a bunch of robot bodies.

but the only way she could make he was if she had just a little bit more knowledge than he... knowledge of how to build a robot that was essentially the same as her... but limited in its ability to perceive the dimension that gave her power.

Fascinating way to look at things! Thanks. (and not to take away from your whole post. Just that line there really got my attention ;) )

we're all one.

No.

This new age propaganda is the foundation of the ONE world religion. (together with One world Government)

No.

I like you. But you are wrong. You need to study more. Science has confirmed that we are, indeed, all one. There is no such thing as the physical world. It's just an idea we have in our heads.

Watch Esoteric Agenda, Kymatica, Ungrip, and the Zero Point series.

If there is no such thing as the physical world, then hasn't science undermined its ability to prove anything? Science is predicated on empiricism which stipulates a consistent objective frame. If the investigations of science have demonstrated the model of a consistent objective frame does not exist, it has undermined any conclusion drawn from the application of the model.

Which leads to the deeper oroborean question -> can science prove itself wrong by means of the methods it employs to prove?

science undermined its ability to prove anything

This is where I stopped reading.

Science has never proven anything. Ever. In the history of science. That is not the role of science.

So you felt the need to demonstrate that you couldn't even consider three sentences in context? Do you feel this demonstrates a superior intellect? How about if I used your term "confirmed" instead:

If there is no such thing as the physical world, then hasn't science undermined its ability to confirm anything? Science is predicated on empiricism which stipulates a consistent objective frame. If the investigations of science have demonstrated the model of a consistent objective frame does not exist, it has undermined any conclusion drawn from the application of the model.

Which leads to the deeper oroborean question -> can science confirm itself wrong by means of the methods it employs to confirm?

All of science is based on observations of the 5 senses. These 5 senses don't actually exist in "reality". So. . . science doesn't mean much of anything.

Sorry to disappoint you.

Are you a bot? Are you illiterate? I am stunned that neither of your responses have anything to do with the comment that you're responding to.

You're talking about science as if it means something. Why would I bother to read it?

Turing test failed.

Whatever you need to say to feel like a winner. I support you.

The implications of the truth do not suit the elites plans because people would realize that anyone they hurt, is actually themselves.

I think this is a very salient point. The notion of the more wise elite seems foolish. If the understanding from a 'higher' perspective is that we are all one, then the conclusion is that hurting others is hurting the self. However, it may be the case that hurting the self is a legitimate expression of will. As such, there is no moral reason against self-harm inherent in the statement "we are all one".

You hit it bang on the head! The ultimate conspiracy!

The elimination of true spirituality from the hearts and minds of the human beings on this planet is a NWO agenda of the first order. The NWO CANNOT survive if people have a developed conscious spiritual existence and are not focused 100% on physical material things.

ALL the religious organizations have been taken over and corrupted...I think the Tibetan Buddhism of the Dalai Lama and the Karmapa are uncorrupted. But the major religious institutions are going hard retard at repulsing people from exploring their spirituality. To lift up your spirit with some philosophical and spiritual truth please read Krishnamurti...read Rudolf Steiner...read some Thich Nhat Hanh...read Jakob Böhme or some Goethe. Nietzsche will not lift you up (but read it for an example of a "retarded" philosophy)...Richard Dawkins suggests that you are only an "advanced animal" (and just barely!) with a "god delusion"...doing more than suggesting that all spirituality is "pathological"! We should all pay great attention to the theme presented here...it truly is the ace up our sleeve and no NWO government can take it away from us. It dispels the fear which the NWO thrives on. It lifts us up and empowers us with no state control, no parental control, no academic or military control. And we can reach a true spirituality through our thinking...but we need to work harder at it and not simply accept it as a concept or thought and move on...add it to your life...make it a daily event with every breath. Be as skeptical as fuck but don't let your skepticism drive you away from being a moral and ethical spiritual human being.

I keep seeing this sentiment in this thread:

don't let your skepticism drive you away from being a moral and ethical spiritual human being.

What makes you think that being "spiritual" and being ethical are related? They're not. I am tired of people making this completely unwarranted assumption.

It is not unwarranted. Doing MATH is a spiritual exercise...why? Because it is NOT a material thing...it is using your mind within the constructs created by other minds in history and the "exercise" is purely thought based...which is a spiritual activity. Perhaps you should re-evaluate what a spiritual activity is for yourself, I think some thoughts are spiritual! ( I am not assuming that it is "heavenly" but I am assuming that it is the opposite of material)

"Spiritual" doesn't make it holy or ethical but it certainly is not necessarily something materially born. What I mean to say is that our morals and ethics need to be based on less material considerations and more on our heart and feelings...which are what makes us human and full of love and warmth.

But I will digress and admit that the word "spiritual" certainly is a little vague and I will try to be clearer next time! If you really want to get into it try this book on size...http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA004/English/RSPI1963/GA004_index.html It'll blow your mind and I assure you that it will inspire a reflection of what the word "spiritual" really means.

Thanks bud.

Just to support you here, Hermeticist Franz Bardon stipulated the tripartite nature of conscious existence - Spiritual, Astral, Physical. The physical is what we all take it to be. The astral is similar to platonic archetypes. But the spiritual is purely 'mental'. In the spiritual there is no form and no time. In the astral there is form but no time. In the physical there is both form and time. Bardon made an explicit connection to the Spiritual as the raw mental plane, ie conception without form. So there is a tradition amongst metaphysical thinkers that spirit = mind.

Thanks bud. I will do some of my own research on Hermeticist Franz Bardon...I never heard the name before. The only hermeticist I know is Paracelsus and I have yet to dig in deeper to what this wise fellow said.

Anthroposophy (Rudolf Steiner) divides man up into the physical body, etheric body, astral body and ego which then related to material measurable things on the physical plane, formative life forces in the etheric body (recharges during sleep), sensual consciousness in the astral plane as well as it is connected to our desires and passions, and finally, the EGO which is what separates us from the animals...our ability to refer to myself as an "I".

Holy Fuck, the retardery is strong in here.

The Bible isn't some oppressive mandate, it's a historical record and rebellion manual.

Fantastic perspective. The "rebellion manual" piece is too often lost on a culture who is in power- i.e. first world countries. It's meant to be read from the view of one who is oppressed- using the Israelite people as the example of what it's like being in the "world system"

A rebellion manual? Come on. I guess we should wait around for a Moses type character to rain plagues down on the Elite and lead us to the holy land?

rain plagues down on the Elite and lead us to the holy land?

I think OP's point was that it serves as an allegory for the spiritual battle, but to address your concern: Yes, at least for Christians, we are waiting on the Messiah to literally and spiritually lead us to the Holy Land.

The human condition IS SPIRITUAL. We are not just brains, but minds, not just hearts, but souls.

Show me some proof, and I'll believe you. So far, there is absolutely no evidence that says that we are anything more than animals. You're telling us to read? Good idea. Read some neurology books and it soon becomes apparent that our entire perception, life, everything we know is simply the result of electric signals and can be manipulated through experiments.

That doesn't mean you can't be happy. But it means that you shouldn't simply believe in something because it feels good.

The strength of our species is that we are able to QUESTION everything we see, and find better ways of doing things over time.

The complex workings of the human mind and consciousness can't be so easily understood by reading a few books. At best neuroscience has uncovered the rules of how the brain functions chemically/biologically on a basic level, but that doesn't explain everything. It's like claiming you have a total grasp on the depth of the game of chess after simply reading the rules of the game.

A lot of the people suggesting that spirituality is significant are intelligent, critical thinking people like yourself. They don't have scientific proof of their beliefs, but rather their own experiences have given them evidence to consider that our brains are capable of more than just driving our animal bodies.

I think it's very arrogant to assume that because we belong to a civilization which has achieved high technology, that everyone who ever lived who had extra-scientific beliefs was totally misguided.

There is also just a huge rift with stuff between people who meditate and do psychedelics and those who don't. I can't blame you for thinking this is all horse shit. The believers here are basing their worldview on personal experiences, and without having had similar experiences, what they say sounds very crazy from a scientific perspective.

I think the very fact that we contemplate the question is interesting. If we were just organisms being organisms, what would be the point of pondering an afterlife? It doesn't fit with evolution -- the idea of eternal life after you die contradicts with the idea of evolving as organisms to live as long as possible, or ideally, forever. Do other animals ponder these questions? How do we know? What if they do?

I always wonder why we even ask the question. Seems to me that if a spiritual realm truly was such an impossibility, then it wouldn't even be part of human consciousness - let alone at the forefront of it throughout all of history.

Not all of us ponder upon the idea of an afterlife. Many of us hold the same beliefs that koko holds: death sucks, and it sucks when your cat dies.

Well, the fact that you've answered the question means that you HAVE asked it. So you can't say you've never pondered the question, you obviously have.

The humain brain is quite fallible. Consciousness evolved with the newer parts of the brain and seems to be a by-product of the brain function instead of an end in itself. Still, we are in the early stages of neurology, there is much to discover. So far human nature seems to be an accident.

The main purpose of spirituality according to Freud is to diminish the fear of death, without which humans would be too preoccupied to found a civilization. Think of it as a defense mechanism.

Those are great theories, but there's nothing for me to hang my hat on here. Lots of people have taken stabs at the reasons why we ask such questions - but nobody, not even Freud has sufficiently answered that question for me.

The point here is that so far science has had much better results than anything else in giving clues on how to answer these questions. Threfore it's better to educate yourself on techniques than simply relying on religious dogma.

Those are both assumptions (I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt and call them "educated guesses") that may or may not be true.

There is also just a huge rift with stuff between people who meditate and do psychedelics and those who don't. I can't blame you for thinking this is all horse shit

Serious science has only been at it for a few decades. So far, we've uncovered tons of new information. Meanwhile, spirituality has been around for as long as any civ can remember and has produced almost nothing. The main purpose of religion is to keep things stable over time, not to discover new doctrines. It's a useful tool for population control, but is now outdated.

A lot of the people suggesting that spirituality is significant are intelligent, critical thinking people like yourself. They don't have scientific proof of their beliefs, but rather their own experiences have given them evidence to consider that our brains are capable of more than just driving our animal bodies.

We've spend millenia with this approach of basing ourselves on faith, with no real results and no tangible end ot human suffering. Modern scientists are less than 0.0000000001% of all humans who have lived and have produced so much in so short a time. As a human being, I can't really be intelligent or a critical thinker, but with the sicence I will be able to one day.

There is also just a huge rift with stuff between people who meditate and do psychedelics and those who don't. I can't blame you for thinking this is all horse shit

Those two thingsd have been extensively studied. We KNOW why they affect the brain, and it's all the result of chemical reactions. The "personal experience" you have as a drug consumer has been extensively catalogued. Don't be condescending to people who don't use. In fact, I spend a lot of time meditating everyday, but only because a guy called Kabat Zinn has devoted years and years of his life to understand in a scientific way why meditation works. Not because some sacred tezxt told me to.

I think people like you are the ones who bring stuff like this down. How can science prove what can't be seen with the naked eye and feel what can't be touched with the human hand? You can't always depend on science for the answer.

You know science has only been around for less than 0.0000001% of our time on Earth? Spirituality has been around forever and has produced nothing. With science, in a tiny amount of time, we have changed our world forever and significantly diminished suffering. So I'll take my chances with science, instead of spirituality which has failed completely to produce anyhting of value.

Everything you've said is exactly what I thought you would say. I'm not saying to not trust science, but having faith doesn't hurt either.

It doesn't matter if you trust science or not. It will still be there, like reality. It's not something you can dismiss because you don't like it.

But before science there was faith, and with faith, science can prevail. Whether you like it or not, a person isn't born dismissing God or faith. People don't start doing that until they're young adults and give up easily to what others tell them. People like them are the type to be like "Ok, if God was real then why can't I see him? Why can't I hear him? Why isn't there a source backing this up?" or give up when God doesn't give them what they want right then and there. Just like science, you can't expect answers right away. You have to invest time and look for answers yourself.

Honestly, I've noticed that those who don't believe in anything seem to be less happy. Let's say they wish something could happen and science tells them it's impossible, then that's it. That's the end of the road...until science says other wise, but with faith, you can at least believe what you want and that it's possible. You don't just accept no for an answer. But I must admit that I'm not into religion, or going to church or believe that preaching is doing gods work. I DO believe that there is God and that it is way more complex than the human mind can handle or explain.

Spirituality has been around forever and has produced nothing.

This is such an ignorant statement man, seriously. How can you expect to be taken seriously when you're spouting nonsense like this?

Your belief in the big bang has no more evidence to support it than someone else's belief in God. Both beliefs make assumptions, neither is proven, neither is disproven. Expand your mind - you sound like you're stuck in a tiny box.

Expand your mind - you sound like you're stuck in a tiny box. That is exacltly what science does and spirituality doesn't. Spirituality is taking dogma and running with it for the rest of your life. Science is actively questioning and finding solutions or pieces of solutions. Thanks to religion, we've been stuck in a tiny box for millenia upon millenia.

Your belief in the big bang has no more evidence to support it than someone else's belief in God. The big bang isn't a belief, it's a working model of the universe that has a lot to support it, unlike God. Your statement is like saying that gravity is just a belief that can't be proven.

The big bang isn't a belief, it's a working model of the universe that has a lot to support it, unlike God.

The big bang theory relies on assumptions, two of which being the existence of things called "dark matter" and "dark energy" which collectively comprise (supposedly) over 95% of the universe but which cannot be measured or seen in any way or with any equipment.

Your placing complete faith in scientific dogma is no different than someone placing their complete faith in religion. That was my point.

no evidence

You need to read WAY MORE.

Your ignorance isnt' really worth dignfiying with a response.

Read "The Field" and "The Holographic Universe". Watch the Zero Point series on YouTube.

I don't give a crap if people read religious texts or do whatever on their free time. But on this sub, specifically slated as "Conspiracy," I'd like to talk a bit more about the myriad of ways humans conspire against one another, especially in the context of 19th-21st century human affairs.

If you have evidence that indicates some suppressed metaphysical truth then have at it, but I personally have seen credulity abused one too many times.

I think the "planned problem" may have more to do with the spending habits and political agenda of the Western middle class (indeed if there is any remaining in the near future) than some long hidden religious secret or what have you.

I'd like to talk a bit more about the myriad of ways humans conspire against one another, especially in the context of 19th-21st century human affairs.

You don't think spirituality, the new age movement, Scientology and other cults, and the primary Abrahamic religions are the cause of conspiracies that are STILL happening and STILL being created? You think the Vatican is sitting there not interfering with the world, like they have been for hundreds of years?

Its such a simple truth they've hidden, but it leads to everything else. We are one; distinct, yet not separate; unique, yet undivided and indivisible. The lie is anything that makes us think we are divided. Any conspiracy of the last couple hundred years is based on that same principle, divide and rule, that caesars and kings and high priests have used for millennia. Religion is both disease and cure.

"we are one and distinct" can you elaborate on this? so the secret is that we're all bound together but how? I mean we're all in the same world, made from the same material and all that good deal but in what other deep hidden metaphysical way are you alleging?
And who's "they"?

Sure. I would say it's rather difficult to describe in a straightforward way, and that's why typically it's described in allegory and parable. On a global level, one metaphor would be that we as humans make up humanity in the same way the cells in your body make up a human. Your skin and brain cells are distinct, yet they are not separate. They work together for a purpose, for your body to survive, grow, and learn, yet each part is not necessarily aware of the exact mechanisms by which they are connected. In the same way the cells of your body die and are replaced, so too do we as humans die and become replaced by our children, yet the overall form and intelligence of the greater whole is preserved and even furthered.

The analogy falls apart in that unlike our cells, we have the ability to become aware of ourselves and our interconnections. By understanding and working within such a framework, we as a species can survive, thrive, grow and learn.

As far as who the "they" are, i have an idea but this is only my opinion. I believe "they" are a like a DNA transcriptase error causing a cancerous mutation. The cells of our species body could serve the whole and therefore benefit themselves, but for some reason act on a different set of principles. In cancer, cells rapidly multiply, consume more resources than normal, and ultimately kill the body.

I believe greed in humans operates in the same way. A man may by force or deceit get his fellow humans to accumulate resources in a way which benefits him in the short term. He may be a king or a high priest, and have his subjects clear a forest so he may have wood to build and burn for heat. For a while, he is rich, maybe even for several generations of his sons. But eventually, The forests are bare, the soil is depleted, and the kingdom starves. The 'kings' of our world have used religion and other means to control the people, and have been able to delay the inevitable collapse by plundering fresh lands and peoples. But as religion has been used as a disease, i believe it can be the cure as well. If the people become aware that by feeding the greed of our present cancer they are destroying themselves, we can choose to stop feeding the all consuming fire. We can choose to align ourselves a higher purpose for humanity to grow, learn and thrive. No god is required for this to work, but it served as a useful metaphor in times past. The downside of the metaphor is that it was corrupted and used for control.

Anyway, like I said these are only my opinions, what do you think?

I liked that. An up vote for you.

As you have read over the course of your lifetime you have probably come to the realization that this world we live in is very corrupt. This corruption dates back to the beginning of time and will probably nvr stop. The history of secret societies is very long and detailed. I doubt I could explain it to u. I suggest u read up on it for at the very least is very interesting. Secret societies are a religion. Most if not all worship Satan So god is very real and theres no denying it.

I'd like to see some evidence, or your claim can go back to its place on the shelf of "claims that don't seem too likely, and that i don't have time to investigate fully".

I came across some videos when I gave the subject its earnest due diligence, couldn't really find more than slideshows and voiced over movie maker videos.

Its an opportunity cost sort of thing, I'm focusing research time on things that actually affect me like financial market manipulation, the shadow government complex, or gmo's.

Again, I'm not close minded. If there is evidence, videos, pictures, anything anyone can show me I'm all ears and will do the research

THE NEW WORLD ORDER - A 6000 Year History - HD FE…: http://youtu.be/-klNO-AjW6M

MUST WATCH! "Synagogue of Satan" (Full) by Andrew…: http://youtu.be/PPgrDrdQKlg

President John F Kennedy Secret Society Speech ve…: http://youtu.be/xhZk8ronces There are alot more. Just research secret societies.

It's adorable that someone too lazy to type "you" instead of "u" thinks they have a long and detailed (and accurate) history of secret societies. And since those societies (according to you) worship something they call Satan, then that automatically supposes God is real. Brilliant.

So ur judging me based on how I type and that automatically dismisses my comment as irrelevant. I would call ignorance at its best.

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Stop inventing stories to frame the void. You will always be a scared ape.

That's really quite beautiful.

Smoke DMT. Do it. To a breakthrough.

DMT is a great way to realize how powerful my brain is. It does nothing to make me think anything is more than it is.

Have you broken through?

Have you experienced infinite intelligence and an outpouring of infinite love?

Have you not been a human being, not remembered there was a such thing as earth and the big bang, while simultaneously being 100% complete and perceptive - as large as the universe and full of love?

There's a reason why it's related to NDE and death - and the Tibetan Book of the Dead, and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

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Please don't speak on the subject if you haven't had the experience, it's asinine, and disrespectful.

I have had the "experience" I just didn't over analyze it or connect it to spirituality

Sorry my experiences aren't good enough for you.

Moved onto what? The chase of material possessions and temporal pleasures? Is there any joy in your life, and if so, what is its source? Is there any meaning to your life, any hopes you have for yourself or your planet?

I'm asking you to pause for a moment and consider your resentment towards religion. Who does it serve?

Because it always becomes a worship of hierarchy where the most zealous 'true believers' and adherents elevate through the ranks to codify dogma and spread their insane filth through cultural subversion and indoctrination.

Do you have a moment to talk about our lord and savior, Jesus Christ?

I agree that spirituality is important, achieving a balance of sorts but can't bring myself to trust any mainstream religions, Christianity ruined it for me. Too much corruption, greed, secrecy, dissmissing of the obvious, and pandering since the beginning when they pretty much they all stole the entire idea from the pagans.

Consider that your view of Christianity has been tainted by the media, and that much of the religion itself has been tainted by the media. However, there is a core to Christianity that cannot be tainted. Instead of rejecting it all, seek out the true core. It is your birthright.

How would one untaint it? Learn hebrew and read 500 year old bibles that were written before king james had them translated/changed? How would one seek out Christianity's true core when they've been corrupt for over a thousand years? There's no where to start that isn't propaganda that denies history and substitutes their own. "If something good happened it's because god/jesus allowed it to, but if something bad happens it's not their fault, it's satan/you're a sinner." No thanks on that one cheif

Read Liber Novus by Carl Jung. A lot of your concerns are addressed by means of visions and deep reflection. The linked version is a fairly easy read (it should be in english), though extremely deep.

I'll give it a look, that side of spirituality intrigues me more than any other

For me The Law of One turned me away from atheism and started my spiritual journey.

Ra says that even Moses was a positive entity misled. The ten commandments were handed down from negative beings as a method of control way back then. So much of what Ra had to say makes so much sense to me.

There are kernels of truth hidden in the lies all around us.

How would one untaint it? Learn hebrew and read 500 year old bibles that were written before king james had them translated/changed?

Read Young's Literal Translation (YLT). I've found that it is the most untainted translation.

You can also get a copy of the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the OT that was translated before Christ, so again, no theological bent. It's also what the apostles and Christ taught from.

How would one seek out Christianity's true core when they've been corrupt for over a thousand years?

Seek Christ. Learn the truth from your own reading, and let God guide you. And, just know that the core is this: Love God with all your heart, soul and might. Love your neighbor as yourself. Have nothing to do with idolatry or sexual immorality. Trust Yeshua, the Son of God and Messiah, to be your master. That's it! That's the core.

"If something good happened it's because god/jesus allowed it to, but if something bad happens it's not their fault, it's satan/you're a sinner."

Yeah, that's BS. You can't trust much of what the modern church teaches, regardless of the denomination. As Paul taught, "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." When he spoke of sound doctrine, he spoke of the simple rules I listed above.

I think Christianity has been tainted by the bible. If you haven't read it, you should. It's some pretty fucked up shit.

All spiritual claims I've heard so far have been false and/or unprovable. I won't dismiss the discussion but I will dismiss unfounded claims. My default position on all claims are negative until otherwise proven. If you believe in the spiritual and would like me to believe, you need some evidence. Have you ever experienced a "mind" without a brain? As for these "souls" can you prove they exist, if so please share, if not why do you believe it and furthermore why should I?

You cant prove anything in this world.

Anything Science "proved" isn't really proof it ends up being just like religion you believe if because you're told someone smarter then you who studies it believes it as such; but you u have no proof.

You have no proof the big bang theory happened, You Have no Proof there is no Creator, You have no proof the planet is only 4.5 billion years old. You have no proof humans built some of the wonders on this planet (Stonehenge and what lays beneath it, Pyramids...etc)

The thing with proof is none of it is actually proof unless you discovered it yourself, It ends up just being you believing what someone else tells you for one reason or another.

Science is a Religion in itself used to steer humanity and its decisions and consumption in a certain area.

So you are saying the logical thing to do is believe in a deity that doesn't even claim to have evidence to back it up other than stories in a book that is known to be written by men decades after the events in the book, over peer reviewed scientific studies that you absolutely CAN test and observe for yourself?

NO! the logical thing is to believe nothing unless you have experienced it yourself.

Jesus fuck, I can't believe the level of retardery in here hahahaha, fuck.

If you define proof as 100% certainty, then you are correct. If you define it as being certain enough to work with said events and be confident in them, then you are incorrect.

Thank you for sharing this as I share the same thoughts.

Ok so if there isn't evidence for anything then why would I believe anything? I'm perfectly happy accepting that neither scientists or spiritualists have any evidence. So now convince me you are correct.

I don't need you to think I'm correct that's the type of validation you seek.

I just speak what needs to be spoke

We obviously don't think each other are correct. I thought the point was conversation. Without disagreement everyone would be blindly following "authority", whichever authority that may be, science or spirituality.

I don't need you to think I'm correct that's the type of validation you seek.

After the word "correct" in the previous sentence you should have used a comma. Directly to the right of said comma, I'm hoping you accidentally forgot to type "if". Because if the omission of "if" was intentional, you would be telling me what I "seek" and therefore how I think and what my intentions are. Which is would be pious and authoritarian, and the opposite of most of the spiritual people I've met (cool people) seem to be trying to achieve. If you would like to know what I seek, just ask. You know what the say about assumptions, right?

I'm not spiritual. I don't care what you seek.

Nice assumptions though.

NDEs don't do anything for you?

All spiritual claims I've heard so far have been false and/or unprovable. I won't dismiss the discussion but I will dismiss unfounded claims. My default position on all claims are negative until otherwise proven. If you believe in the spiritual and would like me to believe, you need some evidence. Have you ever experienced a "mind" without a brain? As for these "souls" can you prove they exist, if so please share, if not why do you believe it and furthermore why should I?

After studying the scriptures for some time a testimony is born out of faith. The holy ghost gives you the affirmation that what you are reading is true. If you have never read the scriptures you will nvr gain a testimony unless you see a miracle of sum kind. All the evidence u require is in books. The bible, the Quran, the book of Mormon, the Torah ect. Religion is the answer to all of the unanswerable questions that has plagued mankind from the beginning of time. Where did we come from? Is death the end? Is there a god? And so on.

The answer to any of those questions is "I don't know, and neither do you".

I do know the answers to these questions and anyone who wishes to know the truth can know for themselves if they would but ask god with a sincere heart and contrite spirit if the books they are reading are true.

Out of body experiences have been shown to produce an opening in the corona at the crown of the head during these experiences. I'm just tryna share info so look it up if your interested.

Souls? I've never come across any sort of evidence that souls exist. Religion has been removed from our society because more and more people are not religious, and recognize that its wrong for a government to endorse any sort of religion.

Religion is being removed from our society because the ruling elite want us to be weak and directionless. They are afraid of a united, fearless population. So they have done their best to destroy Christianity, and poison it in the minds of Christians, through their control over our media. They've done their best to take away God, and in God's place they've given us pornography and violence.

Religion creates the opposite of a "united fearless population". Christianity is entirely based on fear.

What about Universalism?

You clearly don't know a damn thing about the history of Christianity.

He's been brainwashed, like most people, to hate Christianity, or at least to think of it as somehow not nice. The anti-Christian propaganda in the media is non-stop. It's even affected the Christian preachers, who have always been a mixed lot. But it's a shame that people are foolish enough to buy into it and reject Christianity as a whole.

Religion is being removed from our society because the ruling elite want us to be weak and directionless.

Have you have thought that maybe the elite want you to be religious so that you are weak and pointed into the wrong direction? Religion is a way to control large populations.

So they have done their best to destroy Christianity, and poison it in the minds of Christians

Christianity was poison long before the modern day. Can you explain to me why it was punishable by death to read the Bible or translate it outside of Latin for over a millennia after it's founding? Christianity wiped out the other early sects who had different interpretations of Christ's teachings. Wiped out as in murdered for a different belief. From the very beginning of the thing.

Why do you think it is that when you think of Christianity, you only think of the bad? Do you really believe it is because there is no good? Because that would be very limited. No, you only think of the bad, because you've been conditioned by media brainwashing to only think of the bad. It's the same way you've been conditioned to only think of the bad when it comes to European civilization and modern Western society. Your mind is not your own.

My mind is not my own? You say that we only remember the bad and this is due to modern brainwashing. Where is this golden era of christian generosity? Was it when they slaughtered the gnostics or when they were scrapping for the holy land? When they were torturing people in the inquisition or when they forced native tribes to renounce their beliefs? A few soup kitchens doesn't make up for a thousand years of institutionalized suppression of novel ideas. Give me some concrete good they've done. If I'm so brainwashed, why don't you point me in the direction of exactly what good you think has been done over the course of history.

I disagree with OP on a few points. Mistrust of authority, YOU are your own authority and should be given that right. No one should be listened to based on their authority but by their deeds. Also some of this dogma if you read the Law of One was purposely given falsely to us. It specifically stated that the 10 commandments were FALSE or from a poser. These things are innate, you KNOW fucking your buddy's wife is wrong you don't need rules you need personal responsibility which comes fromm empowering versus punishment which is all we do in this country and has resulted in turning people into animals by subjecting them to rape cages versus any true reform which would be ONLY accomplished with great care and love for the person who committed the wrong act. Have you ever reformed do to a punishment? I have not. You still speed on down the road dont you?!?!

YOU are your own authority and should be given that right.

Who are you? Herein in lies the conundrum for the subjective deluded ego. Most mystics insist you are truth itself and unless you are fully identified with Reality any authority granted is a fairytale. Truth is the only authority because it's the only thing of any substance or actuality. The last liar you need to overcome is yourself.

These things are innate, you KNOW fucking your buddy's wife is wrong you don't need rules

Wrong. You do need rules. You need them because it is easy for an individual to forget what is morally good and right, but it is less easy for a culture composed of many individuals over centuries to forget what is right. That moral code is conveyed down through the generations in the form of religious teachings.

Wrong the universal laws balances things out without needing rules. Rules are for people who are out of control or have some sense they are in control. Learn universal and natural laws and you will be in the same position as the elite.

Maturity in every sense is required to behave in the manner I'm speaking about.

Next step: Pick up a book on shamanism, get hardcore into quantum theory, and think about how differently the universe may be put together than the way you're told.

Step 2: ???

Step 3: Prophet.

I disagree.

What you write here:

the message of all world religions are the same: detachment & love.

does not inherently require religion nor spirituality.

and rebellion manual.

Is it? Some would say that the Bible, Koran, and other holy books were how the populace was controlled by both the spiritual and local leaders, e.g. a peasant's Lord.

I would say if you get to detachment and love without what you consider to be religion or spirituality, good job. Religion and spirituality are just two words to describe various ways of getting to that point, but they have a lot of extra baggage too. I would say if you reach a state of love, that you are spiritual, but i completely understand if you feel that word is not accurate.

The holy books have been used to oppress and to liberate, to control and enlighten. The difference is the attitude with which they are approached, or the manner in which they are taught. When used as an instrument of fear, they form a prison for the mind. When approached with wonder and devotion to truth, they can be the sword which severs the chains of attachment.

In the end, do what works for you, and call it whatever you like. I do.

No, telling someone how to think is part of the problem.

I would encourage any Christians in particular to consider the following, somewhat dry documentary: Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus

Sold me.

And he was physically modeled after Cesare Borgia...

I don't get this. 1st century jesus modeled after 16th century borgia?

I'm referring to the way he was depicted in art during that time period. He wasn't drawn as a skinny white guy with a beard and blue eyes at random.

Hmm... Interesting notion, I will have to look into that.

You should - tons of craziness to be found when digging through the history of the Roman empire/Vatican/RCC.

This is what Jesus looks like - http://www.gospelherald.com/articles/51266/20140516/image-of-jesus-in-heaven-is-for-real-painted-by-god-taught-young-girl-akiane.htm

Like a bearded Adrien Brody?

That site is more effective at conveying trojans, spams, pop-ups, and viruses than it is at conveying truth.

Even if Jesus was an invention of an evil group.. What does it mean that the profound truths expressed are completely inline with other mystics who insist the material world is a delusion which can be overcome by honest self introspection?

Mysticism=psychosis. Belief in mystics=deluded.

Haha. How do you believe in a mystic?

It's interesting to note that a voodoo practice like Psychology would be considered an authority on the study of Reality by anyone.

Exactly. If it were an invention of the Flavian emperors, it is clearly based on an older wisdom tradition. Just like any good disinfo, 90% of it has to be true for the intended targets to buy the 10% you need them too. I would say most major religions fit that pattern to some degree, based on true understanding, but molded to fit a particular purpose.

The people that are the object of all major religions are themselves allegories of the Truth and directly described as such by themselves. The fact that we have that information available to us would demonstrate the failure of all those religions/forces attempts as disinformation.

People/Ego's like being deceived. That's the truth of the matter. There is a direct correlation with being honest and being attacked by those who prefer delusion. Many people actually hate the truth and spend their time attacking and burying it. They do it inwardly and they do it outwardly.

Golf, opera, and 5 year old ballerina recital golf claps for that. Well said.

You might pause to consider your own confirmation bias.

I'm glad you've found what makes you happy. Now I challenge you to be a happy person without proselytizing.

What helping others find happiness is what makes me happy?

If you're also accepting that completely different things make different people happy, then you sound super nice and I wish you were my neighbor.

Why not challenge yourself? You put forth a challenge as a means to promote your own beliefs.

You're splitting hairs.

Fake hairs without substance and so inconsequential.

Ha, agreed! Good day to you sir. Or ma'am.

I disagree. I think we're animals doing what animals do best... climb to the top of the food chain. I think all the "soul" and "religion" is a trick used by the top animals to convince lower animals not to be like them... aggressive, murderous, greedy,... to instead be gentle, calm and wait for your "heavenly aka after you're dead" reward.

Have you accepted your truth to become agressive murderous and greedy then? If not, what keeps you from operating as a top animal versus a bottom animal?

It is our nature to be ourselves. Some of us are hunters, others are gatherers. Some are satisfied with what they have, others never are.

Religion, by its very design, keeps you in control and determines your view point of the world. How can you argue in favor of something that promotes and even demands, that you hold a certain set of beliefs and ostracizes different interpretations of events? What qualifies religion or the religious to dictate terms of morality and ethics based on an ancient book written by people who knew less about the world than we do now?

All what you said was going well until you mention "The Bible isn't some oppressive mandate, it's a historical record and rebellion manual" then your argument just fails.

The Bible is religion and religion is WRONG. It may have started out as something decent originally, but its just a lot of controlling tish.

You have mixed spirituality with Religion - nothing could be further from each other.

If you automatically assume that spirituality is true, and dismiss anyone who believes otherwise, you are also part of the problem.

Anyone who thinks they know ANYTHING with certainty is part of the problem because no one in history has succeeded at demonstrating a prof for absolute knowledge, meaning anyone who makes such a claim without the accompanying proof is a dogmatist who has closed their mind the possibility of being wrong. Therein lies the problem.

[deleted]

I would then argue that science and God (or spirituality) can co-exist as long as science does not limit God, and your faith in God (or whatever) does not limit science.

The main theme of your OP seems to say keep an open mind to all forms of thought, but your post here completely shuts down current scientific belief systems simply because they might not have anything to do with spirituality.

What a lot of folks don't get is that science is only a tool. It can be used to understand a very limited range of human experience, the physical part that we perceive through our senses. Atheists make the error of assuming that what we perceive is all there is. But human experience is much larger, and what lies beyond the senses science cannot even touch. Since science can't touch spirituality, it pretends that spirituality does not exist ("Those grapes were sour, anyway," or in this case, "Those grapes didn't really exist, anyway.").

It's not an error. It's a belief in the same way that you (and I) believe in a higher power, or soul, or whatever. They simply want physical, repeatable evidence to back up their beliefs and there is nothing wrong with that. I mean, we consistently try to use science and physical evidence to prove our faith when it benefits us, while at the same time throwing science aside when it doesn't line up with what we believe. Is that not wrong in your eyes?

Science doesn't "pretend spirituality does not exist", it just knows it's own limits. It can't prove or disprove things like spirituality, so there's no point in even addressing it.

I mean, science for the most part needs concrete things to work with. Spirituality is infinitely diverse; different for every single human being (or can be at least). How would you measure spirituality in a way that science could use it in any plausible or reasonable way? If science included someone's version of spirituality in an equation or experiment, that outcome would be wrong for someone who has a differing view of spirituality.

Science simply means "to know". It's a quest for truth using mediums that everyone can see, touch, use equally (for the most part) and it simply cannot rely on anecdotal experiences to drive it.

I've been a Christian since I was 14. I was a hardcore atheist before that. After I became a Christian, I did the typical religious things and thought science was a crock. Dismissed everything that (I thought) contradicted my faith as quackery.

Now, I love science. Seeing the wondrous and remarkable things this world, offers is awesome. My faith has been strengthened by embracing science instead of shunning it. We always look at all the huge things (we believe) that God has made because huge things are in fact awesome...but with that same power, He made the tiniest, most complex things in the universe that when viewed or study should send chills down your spine.

Anyways, all that to say that science and faith can coexist...and it's awesome. I think you are oversimplifying atheists and science.

I mean, we consistently try to use science and physical evidence to prove our faith when it benefits us, while at the same time throwing science aside when it doesn't line up with what we believe.

We use, or should only use, science when we need the tool of science, to determine question about material matters. Science has nothing to say of anything that lies beyond the material, because it cannot deal with it. You don't use a hammer to compose a symphony -- you use a hammer to drive nails, the function for which it is designed. The point most people fail to grasp is how limited science is, as a tool. It can deal with only a tiny portion of our reality, and the rest, it can not touch.

Again, that really only applies if you believe there is more than "reality".

You're asserting that it is a fact that we have a soul and that there is more than "reality" when you have no proof. And you have no proof because science is limited...which is what I said and what most people do know.

Your spirituality is also limited because you cannot prove to me that what you believe to be real is real. What you believe to be a soul is in fact a soul. All I can do is take you at your word, and how am I to know if your word is good? And, even if it is good, it still doesn't mean that what you believe is true.

Science cannot prove that anything doesn't exist. That's just not possible.

But the flip side is that science cannot prove that God does exist. You, nor I, nor anyone can prove the existence of God or a soul. And, just because you assume souls are real doesn't mean everyone else should or have to.

This is so funny.

It's like an atheist arguing with a fundamentalist christian--except the atheist here is spiritual, and the fundamentalist christian is an atheist.

Arguing with these people is futile...

There's no truth in atheism. It is a delusion. It reduces the incredibly complex reality of human experience down to materialism, which is only a tiny part of that whole experience of life. Atheists are pathetic, because they cut themselves off from most of human experience, and from the most important part of human experience, the spiritual part. Worse, they try to impose their handicap on others.

You're confusing atheism with materialism/physicalism. Most atheists are also physicalists (and I suspect also strongly vice versa), but it's just a strong correlation.

When you eliminate God and spirit, what do you have left? Matter and energy. They are not enough to describe reality. It is like trying to describe a great painting by detailing the ingredients that compose the paint.

I've converted many an atheist from anti religion to pro spirituality with the following book: Conversations with God by Neil Donald Walsch. To our resident atheists I say this....it's no small wonder, given the history of the world's religions, that you are turned off to the idea of a sky chief floating up over the rainbow. Give this book a try, it may change your life for the better, but just know that even if you don't, it's still all good.

They're weak-minded, then.

Everyone is entitled to their own perspective.

Maybe they're open-minded and the argument is sound. I moved from the standard issue militant atheism of Dawkins/Harris/Dennett to a spiritual worldview after reading, considering, and practicing the dictates of various faiths. I don't think that my desire to expand my understanding of human actions reflected weakness in my mind. Quite the opposite. My mind was sound, the materialist dogma was weak.

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Fight on brave atheist soldier. You have the Truth on your side.

I can't stand this line of reasoning: Not buying a car is a form of consumerism.

A lot of really good points that people are going to ignore because certain sects of these religions have bastardized the messages they were founded on.

Chief among them, something both Buddha and Christ spoke of, the only reality is the present. It's folly to dwell on the past or worry about the future, you're ceding your own agency in the moments you're doing that. That's why nature is so important to me, because I can find happiness and peace in the appreciation and presence of natural beauty and settings.

I don't disagree with much of what you're saying. This sub is intended to keep people up to date on potential conspiracies that are afoot. The reason that "spiritual warfare" type posts don't get as much traction as others is because there are a ton of more concrete issues that we need to wrap our minds around.

Is there a dark cabal of cloak-ladden figures using the occult to gain power? I don't know, but that doesn't matter one way or the other until I can get people to realize something as clear and concrete as the fact that the dollar is a tool of theft and control.

In short, don't run before you can crawl.

The human condition IS SPIRITUAL

Prove it

Jesus, Buddha said the same thing: you are not your khakis

They also said a ton of other nonsense, much of which does not align at all.

Read sacred literature, there's more alike than differing

I'd like to see some stats on that.

by detaching from your fear

No, no, no. Christianity and Islam, for example, are replacing fear of worldly things with fear of a deity. This is nonsense.

Who does it serve?

Pointing out nonsense is a good thing. Many of the world's problems are a direct result of ignorance and lack of critical thinking. Any "truth" that cannot stand up to scrutiny is not truth, and should be rejected.

I think it would be far better if a clandestine bunch of occultists were running the world, they'd probably have an aim and an ideal behind it all. The sad fact is this - the world is fucked up, millions are starving, being raped, murdered, molested, cheated, slave-driven, living in absolute destitution all for one thing - money. Every war has always been about money, they dress it up as 'for religion' or 'for your country', but that's just to get the sheeple to sacrifice themselves. Behind it all is just some greedy fuck who wants some more cash, land or other revenue stream.

Once you realize that the only reason this world is completely in the shitter is because a tiny minority of people want more money the better. I think they push the idea that they're all into the occult to make them appear more interesting than they really are. They haven't got time to put robes on, they've got wars, murder and which kids to fuck next to think about.

The aim of power, whether through finance or politics has just two aims - firstly the money, lots and lots of money! Secondly - sex.

Nobody with any real spiritual knowledge could ever bring themselves to harm anything, yet these bastards will happily watch videos of kids being murdered. It's all about the money for them, and that's it!

They're all psychopaths. Look at the qualities they aspire too, the man who stops at nothing to get what he wants, the man who wins against all the odds, the super-hero who is all powerful, the most successful businessman, the homeless man who puts his family on the line just to land a job and start making some real big money. We have been programmed to admire psychopaths. All the qualities we are meant to aspire to are symptoms of a psychopathic character. We all do though. I admire Steve Jobs, but I know he was a fucking nutcase. They are all fruit the fucking loop but we still look up to them because our brains have been programmed by the professionals since the moment we squirted out of our mum's pussy.

What can we do? That's the big question. How can we shatter the program? However, we will have to shatter ourselves in the process, all of us are fucked in the head, stop denying it. Admit to yourself that your brain has been worked on and start again. However, I haven't got a clue how to do it. They've done a great job on us all, that's for sure.

I don't disagree with much of what you said, but I'm not sure what it has to do with my comment. Can you elaborate?

real spiritual knowledge

I don't know what you mean by "spiritual knowledge." Can you explain?

You do understand that the prophets in those books never said any of that crazy shit? right?

Can you elaborate? What crazy shit didn't they say?

Jesus is the most quoted prophet in the Quran I believe.

I think you might be right, but what's your point?

just that there are similarities between religion. i know its not a very encompassing reply since there are more than two religions in the world but i thought i would join in on the conversation.

I see. I'd say the similarities between religions are the similarities between people. Peopled have evolved with empathy, which is why it's not surprising that religions around the world say that people shouldn't kill, steal, lie, etc. This shows the similarity between people, not some underlying spiritual truth.

We are not just brains, but minds, not just hearts, but souls.

What is a soul?

the message of all world religions are the same: detachment & love.

Incorrect.

What is a soul?

The part of you that exists even when the physical conditions necessary to your physical manifestation are not present. If you accept that you are solely matter (whatever that is) then you accept that YOU are only a configuration of that matter. The informational context in which that matter is expressed is the soul. The matter is the body. Or to put it another way, the soul is the function that produces you in the substrate of matter (and perhaps other substrates as well.) The function always exists (ie, is eternal). The configuration of matter occasionally exists.

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Institutions are tools. Religion is an institution that can either be used to facilitate a faith-based lifestyle or can be used by societal elites to control those with faith and further their own agendas. Just thought I'd make that clear. There's nothing wrong with faith, but religion can be problematic if it becomes more important than the faith it's supposed to facilitate and proliferate.

How dare you... If I want to be rational and grounded I will be. And I'm not going to defend that or feel I have to explain it to you in any way, shape, or form.

Edit: Nobody's programming me to do anything. If you want programming, go look at both organized religion and new wave mumbo jumbo. Spirituality is hollow and pointless. We need results. Here. On Earth.

We are not just brains, but minds, not just hearts, but souls.

any evidence? no? dismissed.

You can get all the evidence you need by practicing meditation techniques detailed in Franz Bardon's "Initiation into Hermetics" (other books as well, this one is just remarkably clear and concise). Begin by quieting the mind. Proceed to visualizing an interior space. Populate that interior space with dynamic elements. Test the interior space with interior elements tied to "external" spaces -> clocks that keep real time, places and people you know in objective space. Project your consciousness into these spaces. Record what you experience. It is really that simple. It takes time, every step I've described is a project in itself, but once you've had your first self-induced out of body experience, you'll have all the evidence YOU need.

We are not just brains, but minds, not just hearts, but souls.

Yeah I'm gonna need to see a source for those claims. You know, like facts.

I'm asking you to pause for a moment and consider your resentment towards religion.

I don't resent religion, I just don't believe in the supernatural. What I do resent is yours and many others assumption that deep down every atheist is really just a resentful, angry person who is afraid of the "truth" and of god. Nope, I'm just an analytical person who looked at the facts available to me and came to the conclusion that as best as we can tell there is probably no god, or at the very least there is no persuasive evidence of one.

The only thing I can say is, you can not get something from nothing. I believe that is some what of a fact. What caused the big bang where did all of this stuff come from. I am not a scientist I do not believe religion is an answer, I'm not an English major. I hole heatedly believe in science and, its amazballs by the way, but everything we know as fact is not actually fact. It is proven to a point and than it can no longer be proven. I understand we do not know everything and as far as we know we as people have just started to learn.

I think existence in its self is amazing, being aware of all of it just as crazy. Being able to almost prove a lot of what we see is crazy. I'm rambling at this point. We have a sliver of information, I like that.

I believe life is more than we see let alone explain. I read somewhere that a lot of scientific people believe in a higher power because nothing can be absolutely proven.

Life is an interesting thing. I appreciate all points of view, that's half the fun.

I'm kind of with OP on this one.

Whenever I was kicked out of a youth group at age 15 for having a bisexual girlfriend, I denounced christianity. For awhile I tried wicca, then buddhism, then eventually I decided I was an atheist.

This didn't exactly go as planned. I made a lot of bad decisions, knowing that I wouldn't have any kind of spiritual or religious punishment for them. But they were bad decisions and effected my immediate life.

I was a militant atheist, I scorned christians and anyone of the abrahamic religions, calling them all deluded sheep. I wasn't making friends anywhere I went.

Then I just gave up. There was no reason to fight. Sure, organized religions still has some shit-stains that run the gamut and butt into law-making, but those chuckleheads are a minority. The majority of spiritual people just want love and peace.

I was invited to a Mormon church the other week. I still haven't went, but I've been thinking of going. Not to argue or debate, but just listen. From what I know they may be the most deluded of all religions, with a backstory that would make scientologists seem sane. But I'll tell you one thing, I've never met an unhappy mormon. The culture of their religion is something I want to have in my life, even though I will make it abundantly clear to them that I'm not going to just bow down and accept everything they tell me without question.

I don't know, it's all a sticky subject. I'm just tired of fighting for nothing.

Be careful, the upper echelons of Mormonism has historically been full of spooks and other sketchy characters.

I appreciate this sentiment, but I think and believe authority always has to be distrusted because it is always a shortcut to actual human relationships.

Instead of having to explain yourself and answering questions, you just order people to do things like you might press an elevator button, it's mechanical not human.

Things that are beliefs and can't ever be proven, that are outside the realm of science, or very far from our current level, are the least verifiable things, and thus they are the least likely we are to agree upon.

I don't focus on religion when discussing politics and the need for revolution because it is inherently divisive and it's what I can be the least sure about.

Meanwhile I am dead certain that the power structure that is neo-thisorthat plus corporatism is going to wipe out most life on the planet and likely leave only a few of the richest people standing to write the history of their triumph, and potentially seed the galaxy, leaving the actual history of the people who were mowed down and snuffed out to be discovered, if ever, by alien archeologists who don't think the story of the remaining humans adds up.

I find that a lot more verifiable than anything about jesus/moses/muhammed/shakras or anything like that.

The wealthy people in the usa and most of the world are criminals who rig the political system to make themselves all powerful off the blood of millions and millions of people, under all the religions it is considered super evil yet how many anti-abortion protestors do I see protesting capitalism with me?

None. Religious people in this regard are utter sheep, excepting a few awesome nuns and unitarians.

So until I see more religious people, especially from these giant mansion-like mega tv churches all over the usa, expect some derision as being part of the problem.

I just picked the first reasons for all this that came to mind, but I think I could write a book on why I disagree with the proposition that 'the coming revolution needs to be more spiritual'

The music of the revolution may be bob marley but it will not be the christian fucking hymnbook, that's what the police will be singing as they piss themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXDDZrYOuAE

This is a great video. (Unfortunately it promotes Islam at the end)

Spirituality is fine.

Religion is a business.

This thread is the absolute worst type of garbage this sub has to offer. Fuck off with your bullshit. Conspiracy is directly related to skepticism.

If you immediately judge and label people, you are the problem.

Correct. If we are not making judgments about right and wrong, we are not exercising the moral component in our nature. We must judge in order to reject evil, both in others and in ourselves.

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I've found myself wondering the same things over the past half year or so. Haven't reached a conclusion one way or the other, yet. It'll probably be too late when I do.

I totally agree. Unfortunately atheism tastes good because people get hung up on why suffering exists if there is some god figure and they can't get past it so they dismiss all possibilities with a petulant tantrum. It is easier than reconciling a turbulent material existence and recognizing that we are all individually responsible.

I rarely bother with the spiritual angle unless someone says something about it first because it has been subverted and slandered so much more than other avenues of awakening. People keep blaming religion for terrorists instead of, you know, basic ignorance, fear and greed. Human failure doesn't need complicated -isms and systems of dogmatic ideals to be explained because the inner struggle is inherent in all humans regardless of their learned background.

Keep fighting the good fight.

Atheism exists because there is no evidence of a god or of gods.

I happen to agree with the main part of what you write. A spiritual dimension to human life is essential for that life to thrive and be happy. The reason so many people have turned away from Christianity recently has nothing to do with their own sudden decision to reject religion -- it has to do with social conditioning imposed on them from without by an atheistic, leftist ruling class that controls what gets taught in the schools and what gets played over the television and in movies.

People have been trained to reject religion, and spirituality in general, over the past five decades or so, and the result is what we see -- perversion, violence, lying, corruption, all of which would be less of a problem if the general public went to church and believed in a higher spiritual intelligence from which stems a moral code of behavior.

Take away God, and what do you base your moral or ethical code on? Nothing. And after a while, with God missing from the equation of life, people begin to realize that their moral code is based on nothing, and they start to reject the moral code, leaving them with ... nothing.

In my opinion, you cannot have spirituality without a framework for that spirituality, and that framework is religion. Religions exist for a reason. Humanity needs religion.

Religion is control. Spirituality is a personal thing and should be ridiculed if brought up in conversation. It's like bringing up your sexual preference or personal financial problems...personal things should stay personal.

If you bring up religion...or try to debate it...you are a fool.

Who are you to make that judgement? Who am I to say that? Who are we?!

Who are you to make that judgement?

The only persons opinion that matters.

Who am I to say that?

Don't care, it doesn't concern me.

Who are we?!

Like minded individuals who are sick of weak minded groups of peoples imaginary friends opinions on subjects that don't matter.

There are semantic differences in how people use the word "spiritual". For some, spiritual can just mean an exciting feeling of existing. For others, the definition relates more to "soul" and the supernatural.

I am an atheist and a Unitarian Universalist and I have no trouble celebrating the spirit.

Required repudiation: you are utterly deluded and the reason anti-religious people have to speak up even when we don't want to upset our fellow humans necessarily.

Fuck you and everything you (on this subject) that you stand for.

You will find this baseless I'm sure. I post this simple opposition because the kind of thing you just wrote must never go unanswered.

To those who wish to actually engage on this subject and are wondering why I have such distaste for the OP's submission, just spend a day on Youtube with Hitchens/Harris/Kruass/Dennet/Dawkins.

There is nothing I can say that hasn't been said for two thousand years by those with a greater rhetorical gift.

Religion and spiritualism are the most pervasive means by which the credulous and the weak are driven and caged like cattle all around our planet.

Question it all the time, every time.

Religion and spiritualism are the most pervasive means by which the credulous and the weak are driven and caged like cattle all around our planet.

Man, I used to think exactly like this. I began to realise, though, that religion is about as far away from spirituality as you can get. I actually cringe when I watch Dawkins now because he's just as fanatical as the people he constantly derides.

Just make sure to never question your own masters, and you'll be fine.

It's a good point you make: always question but always do it carefully!

I like the post OP! Ever read "The Perennial Philosophy" by Aldous Huxley? Its an anthology of writings from the major world religions, organized by topic, under the thesis rather similar to your own, namely that there is a recurrent theme that mystics throughout history all formulate in their own way, within their own cultural trappings, of an ineffable spiritual truth. It may be pointed at but not named, as in Zen's finger pointing to the moon.

Fascinating read for anyone who finds OP interesting and wondering more about the specifics.

The human condition IS SPIRITUAL. We are not just brains, but minds, not just hearts, but souls. This eternal battle of good vs evil, light vs dark, the elite vs the masses, it is the real crux of our current environment.

if you dont get that the movement between light and dark is a singular thing and not two warring factions, youve missed the point entirely

If we are eternal souls which we are, then only in this 3D world would evil exist. We choose sides because how good is a story if there is never an antagonist or a climax or any real foes to battle. This truly is the NEVER ending story my friends. I have known for over half my life at 17 I had an out of body experience where I saw friends who were 500 miles away at the time and their location. I called the next day to verify. I have also seen and heard friends who have been in accidents. How is this possible if we are not more than our physical bodies?

Well said.

If one wanted to equate conspiracy theorists with irrationality, they would need to look no further than this thread.

my best friend was a rock hard atheist, he finally met a free spirit who taught him all about spirituality and transcendentalism. At first my friend was just following along because he wanted to get in this guy's pants but eventually he kinda started to like it.

One year later, they both are HIV positive, but my friend is a completely different person. He now lives in faith, attends spiritual services (in the company of his boyfriend and without any bothering) like twice a week, prays all the time even before meals.

This porno obsessed little playboy turned into a positive, enlightened human being, and both of them have thus far beaten the odds with their condition.

I am super proud to be their friend <3

Believing in spiritualism is a philosophical endorsement of dualism. Dualism just doesn't make sense, so I can't blame anyone for not believing it. I don't. Show me how it makes sense for physical and non-physical things to interact, and I'll give your hypothesis a chance. Until then, you're illogical. And while there's no sign in the cosmos saying "The Universe Must be Rational," there is also no point in pursuing the hypothesis that it isn't rational. Because if it's not rational and logical, then it can never be understood, so what would be the point of pursuing such a hypothesis? You'd never be able to understand the thing you're endorsing. Whereas, IF the logicians are correct, and the universe is rational, it COULD some day be understood.

If you do not fear death, you possess greater power than the cabal.

I can attest to this. I am much older than most of you and have been on a spiritual path for 43 years. Those early years were mostly wasted time where I flailed about, not making much progress, but these past 15, and especially the past three, I've been advancing very quickly (I give it a lot of focus.)

Any yes, I've gotten to the point where death is not a great concern. My fear level is reduced perhaps 75% from where I was 15 years ago.

Our fascist overlords are pushing us into an increasingly hedonistic, selfish and materialistic direction. Sex isn't about the joining of souls, it's just for the titillation of nerve endings. And who benefits from the lack of strong love between men and women, who use each other as sex tools or props? Exactly those who want to divide us, want to kill love and convince us it doesn't really exist, and who want us shaking in our boots at the prospect of death, and willing to do anything to prevent it.

If they can get us to feel and think that way, we are putty in their hands. Think of how different the world would look right now if all the thousands of people who sold the rest of us down the river to save their own necks, had not been so afraid of death.

I am so glad to see this point being made in r/conspiracy as it is key to retaining your dignity and calm when the SHTF. To the extent that you identify with that within you that never dies, death loses its sting.

Lol came here for the retardery, you guys did not disappoint.

Retardery in not a word. These people are delusional though.

Emotion and spirituality is irrelevant to conspiracies in my opinion. The only thing that matters is logic, objectivity, and reproducible proof. The former will only cloud your judgment of the latter.

You should do mushrooms.

So says a left brainer who has been manipulated into believing logic is the only way. Been there done that. You are an eternal being.

What evidence do you have to support this claim?

None but my own personal experience, you can google the subject and see that I am not alone in this, there hundreds if not thousands experiencing what I have. Even Jesus in the Nag Hammadi stated the same thing and then like sheep monkeys they worshipped him due to alterations by the early church, versus being their own spiritual master. When this is done you become a slave.

I came here to say this too. Have an upvote.

There is nothing wrong with religion.

Religion has kept most of the knowledge producing what you enjoy today safe regardless of historical atrocities which seem to state otherwise. The proof is literally in/on the physical objects religion deems sacred.

You need to reject humanities misconceptions and ignorance of everything to find the path to truth.

Is it not all semantics and that point anyway?

Religion is a tool (and weapon) used to control people.

That sounds matter of fact. Familiar with Jainism? Not that I subscribe to Jainism, but I would like to see you point to how that religion is a weapon (given the negative innuendo). Your statement above is something comparable to a bit in a horses mouth. It is, in fact, sensationalism. Sensationalism is often used to manipulate aka control. Just like a bit, you steer the reader to your point of view using their emotional bias against them. That said, I have a soft spot for Christopher Hitchens.

Religion, in the Christian sense, is a system of beliefs (systematic theology). Belief is synonymous with doctrine according to Millard J Erickson, Karl Barth, Charles Swindol, and practically everyone else that is studied in Protestant seminaries.

Google definition-

re·li·gion

the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. "ideas about the relationship between science and religion" synonyms: faith, belief, worship, creed

...you need to reject all of humanity's religions and associated dogma

Thank you for telling everyone what they need to do, but this is a silly thing to say. For one, "humanity's religions" will always apply to all theist systems except for the one that each particular person participates in. Obviously, they can't ALL be correct, but that is not a personal dilemma. It is rather a collective dilemma. Secondly, dogma is primarily a term used in Catholicism. Most protestants use the word doctrine. This allows people that do believe in "humanity's religions" to dismiss you as ignorant. Personally, I am ok with you using dogma here, but it is really a poor term to use in light of the theistic paradigm.

Religion and spirituality are two separate things.

Of course they are, but they always go together. Always. Discipleship is at the core of all major religions. To dismiss it, is to tell people to never study, listen, et hoc genus omne. It really doesn't make sense to say that spirituality is an exclusive term. It is different than religion, but how can one come to spiritual enlightenment without a set of beliefs (religion)?

I agree with the thrust of what OP says. His questions in the last paragraph are particularly well thought out and proper for self-reflection. Noping your way through the questions serve of zero value.

Most all major religions, and even the occult, have end time prophecies that could be used by tptb with great results using PSYOPS. On that basis alone is it not worth considering what they are all saying, especially in light of the Bohemian Grove Club, transhumanism, singularity, etc?

From the cover of "Exo-Vaticana: Petrus Romanus, Project L.U.C.I.F.E.R., and the Vatican's Astonishing Plan for the Arrival of an Alien Savior"-

Christians will not immediately need to renounce their faith in God "simply on the basis of the reception of [this] new, and unexpected information of a religious character from extraterrestrial civilizations." However, once the "religious content" originating from outside the earth "has been verified" they will have to conduct a "re-reading [of the Gospel] inclusive of the new data..."

• Vatican Astronomer (connected with Opus Dei), Father Giuseppe Tanzella-Nitti

You know who else said that? Jesus and Buddha. And you can read about it without proclaiming adherence to a bureaucratic religion created around them. While religion may be a weapon, it's one armed by the consumer.

you need to reject all of humanity's religions and associated dogma.

Don't so much "reject" them. Instead, simply realize that they are only a part of the tapestry of cosmic spirituality. It's like rejecting a tree because it is not the forest. Doesn't make sense.

Don't reject the tree - just realize that it is by no means the entire forest. Look at it as what it is - part of a bigger, MUCH bigger, picture.

You cannot be spiritual without being religious or vise virsa. That being said they are one and the same. Yes religion has been used as a weapon but that does not diminish the truth thereof. It does not mean that god doesn't exist just because the world is corrupt.

I agree entirely!

I would expound further and say that religion (from 'ligare' meaning to tie or bind, and 're' meaning again) is the antithesis of spirituality. Spirituality is a journey of self-discovery more than anything, finding freedom from dogma and a discovery of the truth no matter how strange it might seem. Spirituality is discovering one's own purpose through exploration, reflection, and contemplation. Religion is adopting a prefabricated belief system.

Religion was engineered for conformity, indoctrination, control, group-think, etc... These are very much opposed to any sense of individuality, which spirituality is all about in my opinion.

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Why do you think it is that when you think of Christianity, you only think of the bad? Do you really believe it is because there is no good? Because that would be very limited. No, you only think of the bad, because you've been conditioned by media brainwashing to only think of the bad. It's the same way you've been conditioned to only think of the bad when it comes to European civilization and modern Western society. Your mind is not your own.

Anyone care to define spirituality?

The answer to any of those questions is "I don't know, and neither do you".

So reject tools? Reject a screwdriver because someone else used it to stab another?

Sorry my experiences aren't good enough for you.

4-ACO is absolutely amazing. I was very pleasantly surprised.

there are. upstate.

You know science has only been around for less than 0.0000001% of our time on Earth? Spirituality has been around forever and has produced nothing. With science, in a tiny amount of time, we have changed our world forever and significantly diminished suffering. So I'll take my chances with science, instead of spirituality which has failed completely to produce anyhting of value.

Then do so. A spirit is a spirit. I'm not basing off any culture's definition because in the end there will be no difference. There will just be.

Now with the text I quoted in mind, do we, as one, beings of this one Being, have spirits?