ELI5: taking suggestions as orders.

1  2017-06-08 by Korlis

If person 1 suggests that person 2 do something less than legal, and person 2 decides to interpret that suggestion as an outright order, who is in the wrong? The suggester? Or the suggested (ordered)?

26 comments

n/a  ScholarOfTwilight 2017-06-08

Context matters.

n/a  Korlis 2017-06-08

Ok.

"Won't someone kill that dude?"

"Consider it done, my leige."

n/a  4ivE 2017-06-08

That troublesome priest.

n/a  Korlis 2017-06-08

That's the remark that prompted this post.

Henry issued no orders either...

n/a  4ivE 2017-06-08

More of a Blackadder vibe on this one, but yeah.

n/a  Korlis 2017-06-08

This entire circus, from the primaries to this very afternoon has been Mitchell and Webb worthy.

n/a  kikstuffman 2017-06-08

Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?

n/a  Korlis 2017-06-08

That's what sparked this post.

n/a  CitationDependent 2017-06-08

Comey was asked how a president would go about ending an investigation, Comey said the president could give the order.

He didn't end the investigation after Trump said that he hoped it would go away, so he didn't take it as an order.

End of story.

n/a  Korlis 2017-06-08

Ok, wait.

I remember reading more than once that comey said he took Trump's words as orders. But Trump said he hoped it would go away, which is in no way an order.

So is it established that Trump did not order the investigation closed?

n/a  CitationDependent 2017-06-08

According to Comey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67-iTpIqZrU#t=3h19m2s

n/a  Korlis 2017-06-08

Thanks for the link.

I'm in a hospital at the moment and don't want to watch vids on my data. Will look when home again with wifi.

n/a  CitationDependent 2017-06-08

James Lankford:

OKAY. FAIR ENOUGH. IF THE PRESIDENT WANTED TO STOP AN INVESTIGATION, HOW WOULD HE DO THAT? KNOWING IT IS AN ONGOING CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION, OR COUNTERINTELLIGENCE INVESTIGATION, WOULD THAT BE A MATTER OF TRYING TO GO TO YOU, YOU PERCEIVE, TO SAY YOU MAKE IT STOP BECAUSE HE DIDN'T HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO STOP, OR HOW WOULD THE PRESIDENT MAKE AN ONGOING INVESTIGATION STOP?

Comey:

I'M NOT A LEGAL SCHOLAR. SO SMARTER PEOPLE ANSWER THIS BETTER, BUT I THINK AS A LEGAL MATTER, PRESIDENT IS AHEAD OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, AND COULD DIRECT IN THEORY WE HAVE IMPORTANT NORMS AGAINST THIS, BUT DIRECT THAT ANYBODY BE INVESTIGATED OR ANYBODY NOT BE INVESTIGATED, I THINK HE HAS THE LOCAL AUTHORITY, OF US ULTIMATELY REPORT IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH UP TO THE PRESIDENT.

James Lankford:

WOULD THAT BE TO YOU, TO THE GENERAL? TO WHO HE WOULD DO THAT.

Comey:

IF HE WANTED TO ISSUE A DIRECT ORDER, HE COULD DO IT THROUGH THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OR ISSUE IT DIRECTLY TO ME.

n/a  Korlis 2017-06-08

Ok. And thanks for the transcript.

That seems like they were discussing whether the president COULD end an investigation, within his authority as chief executive (seemingly yes), but sheds no light on whether he issued an order to do so or not.

n/a  CitationDependent 2017-06-08

It's quite simple. Trump is Comey's superior. Trump issues an order, Comey needs to follow and can work with the ethics committee later.

Trump said: I hope you can let this go.

If he took it as an order, and the president can give such an order and he is required to follow it, then why didn't he follow it?

Because he didn't take it as an order.

n/a  Korlis 2017-06-08

Then what was he referring to when he said he took Trump's words as orders?

n/a  CitationDependent 2017-06-08

Comey says he took:

Trump said: I hope you can let this go.

As an order to let it go. But then he didn't let it go.

n/a  Korlis 2017-06-08

This is so convoluted.

He took a clearly non-order as an order which he then chose to disobey...

Still, the only conclusion is a lack of obstruction of justice.

n/a  Fuck_The_Mall_ 2017-06-08

Because he didn't take it as an order.

Or maybe because he doesn't take an oath to follow orders from the president, but rather to uphold the constitution.

n/a  CitationDependent 2017-06-08

Then why did Comey say the way for a president to have a investigation dropped is to order him to do it?

You aren't arguing with me, you are arguing with Comey's own words under oath.

n/a  Fuck_The_Mall_ 2017-06-08

the way for a president to have a investigation dropped is to order him to do it?

That's the way Trump wanted it to be, not the way it should be, and is one of the reasons they're having these hearings.

n/a  CitationDependent 2017-06-08

No, that's how Comey said it was.

The video is here. He was asked specifically how a president could end a investigation and Comey said by directing him to end it.

It is not what Trump said, it is what Comes said. Comey did not offer an alternative means.

Please watch the video if you want to comment on it.

n/a  Beavis357 2017-06-08

Please watch the video if you want to comment on it.

I did watch it, and I don't remember him saying that. I can't find it in the transcript either. Can you point me to the section where he says that?

n/a  CitationDependent 2017-06-08

Wow, look for the transcript on Politico and ignored the section that I added here from an unbiased site.

Also ignored the video where I linked to the very moment the exchange starts.

So, if you want me to point you to where it starts, how about reading the comment chain or watching the video link in this thread?

n/a  Her_Excellency 2017-06-08

Are we saying there is no distinction between feeling pressured to end something yourself or having someone else end it?

n/a  CitationDependent 2017-06-08

No, I'm saying that if Comey took it as order from Trump, then he is legally required to follow it.

He didn't follow it and as such didn't take it as an order. As was pointed out in the testimony, Trump had made the same sentiments publicly in the same timeframe. In other words, not only was it not taken as an order, it was understood to be the general feeling Trump had at the time.

There was never a case of feeling pressured to end it or having someone end it. As Comey also stated, Trump had only mentioned it once and there was never any follow-up with either Trump or through any third party.

n/a  Her_Excellency 2017-06-08

There can be a distinction between it being an order as in "something he felt directed to do" and it being an official order which he is legally obligated to do.

n/a  CitationDependent 2017-06-08

Trump is the commander-in-chief. It Comey felt "directed to do", then he should have done it according to Comey.

n/a  4ivE 2017-06-08

Would you kindly destroy that evidence.

n/a  Korlis 2017-06-08

I hope that evidence is somehow destroyed. ;-)

n/a  Korlis 2017-06-08

That's the remark that prompted this post.

Henry issued no orders either...