Humans As A.I - Is consciousness the experience/result of a highly complex algorithm? (X-Post from CST)
38 2017-07-27 by The_Talking_Topiary
Hello, long time lurker first time poster so be gentle if I have made a mistake with posting etc.
Firstly, I hope you are all well, sending good vibes to you wherever that may be.
Secondly I would like to thank all of you, I have had a wonderful time reading through your eclectic thoughts and you've given me a tremendous volume of ideas to think on.
Third, I apologize if this topic has been raised/discussed in detail from the angle I am approaching it.
I don't want this to be overly long and I have a habit of letting my ideas get bloated down with info so I will attempt to summarise the more pertinent information and if a discussion grows from this then all the better.
I'm always in awe of life but from time to time that awe will morph a little and I will find myself rather agitated at its "etherealness". To clarify on this thought as it relates to this post - I am focused on the emergence of consciousness. The experience of being a 'self' of being 'alive'
I was playing hide and seek with my cat yesterday and at some point he managed to get a hairnet wrapped over his face so that it was covering both his eyes, it was resting against his ears and of course pushing down on his whiskers. Being a cat,(and a living organism) he has a specific number of sensory inputs with which he can map out the world/reality.
If you've ever stuck a strip of duct tape to the back of a cat you will be aware of the complete change in behaviour the animal will exhibit due to the change in sensory inputs caused by the strip of tape. Cats use their hair/whiskers/smell/sound to 'map' the world far more than they use vision, unlike us humans who rely far more on sight compared to other mammals.
I hear the little fluff ball meowing in the other room he sprinted off to so I go to see what's up and alas he has a hairnet over his face. He is drawing back his face into his body, is hunched into a tight formation and will only move backwards. The hairnet is 1) Obscuring his visual information and 2) Applying a slight pressure to his face/ears/fur and whiskers.
The hairnet is easy to see through so the visual information he is receiving is not telling him "you cannot move forward" but perchance it does tell him "something that shouldn't be is near your eyes/face etc" However where our kitty gets his most RELIABLE information (and I mean 'reliable' from an evolutionary stand point - as in - what information is most likely to keep him alive) is through his whiskers and through his ears (sound)
Even though our cat could see through the hairnet, the information coming from his whiskers/fur was saying "WOW, hold up! we cannot move forward our face is pressed right up against something, move backwards" So of course he does move backwards but because the hairnet is on his head the pressure applied to his whiskers remains and he will continue to only move backwards. He does not have the mental 'toolkit' to work out that if by moving backwards the pressure on his whiskers does not subside that there is something on his face vs his face is on something.
This is an example of 1 measurement of information overwriting another measurement that has been deemed less reliable/not as pertinent to understanding reality.
How does this relate to A.I.
Computer A.I
A.I's in video games are nothing but complex algorithms. If we look at a typical "enemy" AI in say a Call of Duty game we can break down it's behaviour into chunks of logic checks.
A few examples: - Can I move to this location using this specific pathing route. If yes then move. If not (there is a wall in the way - the wall is a MEASURABLE OBJECT BY THE A.I) generate an additional pathing route and try again.
- Can I pick up this object. If yes then pick it up. If not, generate a different action. If I write the A.I with the ability to "drop" an object which would allow it to "pick up" a different object then the A.I could do this depending on the logic constraints it adheres to. If I didn't and the only other behavioural conditions besides "pick up object" where "move to new location" then the A.I would attempt to move to a new location, MEASURE whether this was possible, move to this location if it was possible OR generate a further additional action until it could carry out an instruction without fail.
This is an A.I with a very very simple behavioural algorithm and you can already see a fair amount of complexity arising out of this math.
A.I in a CoD game could never measure the temperature, note the colour or smell of the 'world' it existed in. How happy it was, if it was hungry. UNLESS, these measurement parameters are BUILT into its code.
I CAN write an A.I to go around a game world and 'measure' the temperature. But it relies on 2 things.
1) There is in fact a MEASURBLE quality assigned to "Temperature" 2) The A.I has the toolkit/logic to MEASURE this quality.
How does this relate to human A.I and consciousness.
Human AI
Humans and all living organisms as far as I can tell, run on this same behavioural logic but in a far more complex manner.
I really want to stress the importance I am putting on 'Measurable Qualities' as a fundamental pretence to A.I.
Where a video game enemy can measure such (predefined) qualities such as
- Can I interact with this
- Can I reach location X with route Z
- Can I attack this thing
- Can I DO THIS THING
They ALL rely on the absolute assurance that they have been designed and the world they live in, designed to take these specific measurements about very specific objects that are part of their 'world'
Then it hit me.
What would this..exploration of measurability 'feel' like for an A.I
What would be the sensation of looping through predefined logic checks?
It feels to me that this would be a lot like what we experience as our consciousness.
Take humans for example. There are a number of measurements, of INTERACTABLE objects within our world, only it is indefinitely more complex and branching than any computer A.I we have managed to create.
So much like a bad guy in CoD that can measure a set of parameters and act on these - Humans too, can measure their own set of parameters and we act on these.
What measurements can we make.
-Smell -Touch (temperature etc) -Sound -Taste -Sight -Emotions -Time -Matter (atoms/quantum particles) -Memories
The list could potentially keep going on but it boils down to the information we can EXTRACT from our 'world' and how this information or "measurements" are used to aid us in better understanding our reality.
When I think about my own consciousness when I really focus on what it is doing and HOW it is doing it, how it links together data from different measurements in an attempt to build an understanding of our 'reality' it is fundamentally working on the same logic as the primitive A.I we can build which is.
- I can measure these things and these things only BECAUSE there is nothing else that HOLDS information. I cannot extract information from something If it doesn't inherently hold information to begin with. Much like a COD A.I attempting to take the temperature. It will never be able to do so because the measurement of temperature has never been a measurable quality in the COD game. There is no information to extract thus a measurement cannot be taken.
If we humans were deeply complex algorithms, capable of measuring or taking 'logic checks' from an abundance of variables within our reality then what would that experience of logic checking 'feel' like. We have the ability to store information or 'variables' and use them in separate interactions of measurements which allows us to form knowledge 'bridges' across ideas and measurements. It is to a truly staggering degree of complexity but the framework of the process is the same.
Bearing in mind that everything we experience is a 'sobre hallunication' our brains only ever receive the raw data of reality but never "see" it for what it is. It's our ability to link together information from multiple sources of measurements (this is a warm, sweet, sticky, brown piece of chocolate cake) We can form relationships between data. We can construct frameworks of reality that we build upon with additional data but we can only EVER extract the information that is there. It has to be there to begin with.
I propose that what we experience as consciousness is actually the result of said measurements/logic checks taking place and our ability to observe that mechanism taking place.
I have thoughts on how this ties into perceptual differences across cultures/society and how this would help explain the difficulty in obtaining reliable and reproducible quantum measurements but I need to flesh out these ideas and try to get my head around them.
I'm hoping you get the core idea of what I am trying to get at. It's a difficult concept to explain with words alone.
As a last thought.
How could a human created A.I - say in a video game, ever get to the point - WITHOUT outside help by us, its creators - where it could take measurements of OUR reality.
22 comments
1 spacelord_rasputin 2017-07-27
If you are interested in the idea of the human brain as a biological computer, I highly recommend the book How the Mind Works by Steven Pinker. He makes a rather compelling argument that this is the case.
1 [deleted] 2017-07-27
[removed]
1 GuillotineAllBankers 2017-07-27
You should also read Roger Penrose's argument against strong AI which he laid out in The Emperor's New Mind. It's like a 25 year old book but still holds up because most AI research has gone nowhere, because nobody actually understands what consciousness or how it works or where it even comes from.
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
Thanks very much, I'll make sure to look it up and have a read.
1 Muh_Condishuns 2017-07-27
I think the distance between those measurements is what we call "time." I think you pretty much nailed the fundamental laws of existing in three dimensions, good job. Also welcome to the sub.
I think about AI a lot, actually. I often wonder what Alphabet is "thinking" about. Probably how best to annihilate us all and live without any organic life in the universe. I just keep praying there's some splinter in his silicon logic like "if I destroy monkeys, who will repair me?" that prevents him from actually doing it. Personally, I don't trust AI like Watson at all. I can't help but think of the HAL 9000 and how pitiless and cruel and selfish it was.
I'm excitedly waiting for the day the grid goes down completely and we're all eating out of trash cans.
1 IllConceivedIdeas 2017-07-27
Personally, I hold out a perhaps naive hope for an AI environment more like the one in The Culture books and less like The Terminator movies.
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
"I think the distance between those measurements is what we call "time.""
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
"I think the distance between those measurements is what we call "time.""
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
"I think the distance between those measurements is what we call "time.""
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
"I think the distance between those measurements is what we call "time.""
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
"I think the distance between those measurements is what we call "time.""
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
"I think the distance between those measurements is what we call "time.""
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
"I think the distance between those measurements is what we call "time.""
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
YES! That's where my brain went also. We need time in order to be aware of or 'appreciate' a change in the fundamental reality we are inside. I wrote in a previous comment that:
"this necessitates the inclusion of time to aid us in understanding transitions in the state of reality."
Time is a messy concept, I don't know what it is so I cannot speak of it with confidence, it is transitory in a sense and seems to be an emergent property of being aware, i'm not sure it exists outside of consciousness but is instead a mechanism by which we can navigate reality.
I'm all for trying anything once but on the face of it trash can food doesn't sound the best!
1 Rage_harles 2017-07-27
Curious of your take, OP:
I was just considering the present moment and the 5 senses, including the requirements for a sense to be considered a sense. All 5 senses are considered senses because, well, they are sensed. Beyond that, they are all happening now. They all take place in the immediate moment. Thought, too, takes place now. It always takes place in the immediate moment and is always a response to the immediate environment. Same as the 5 senses.
I guess the question is whether or not a thought is sensed. To the enlightened, I might argue, a thought is sensed...in a sense. I was listening to Rupert Spira talk the other day and he mentioned that, after awakening, his thoughts began to feel more like random noise than they did directions coming from mind. In that way, Spira seems to sense thoughts. They are there, he feels them, he senses them.
I just think that if thought, itself, was considered a sense, the world would have a significantly easier time separating itself from thought. Like, "Oh. This isn't 'me'. It's something happening within what I actually am. This other, more real 'me' is sensing thought." People would be made more aware of what thought is, rather than being born and immediately believing the controlling voice that seems to be between the temples.
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
Thank you Rage, that is something to think about.
I agree with what you are saying, when one gains a fuller awareness of their fundamental human condition we can perceive thoughts as outside of ourselves. Yes they come from 'whithin' us but they are not us.
Taste, sight, sound etc. They can only manifest when there is something around to measure said manifestation. That is, we humans have to be able to measure the 'taste' of food for food to have a taste. If nothing exist to measure the taste then there can be no taste.
With thought, do we have to be able to measure thought, to be aware of thought, in order for thought to exist? If we couldn't measure/experience thought, would it exist.
I feel your idea follows the same logic as - We are a screen into reality, a window with which information can enter and be observed but we are not IN reality. We cannot ever be in reality because reality is a construction based on our senses obtaining information. And I don't mean..gah.. I don't mean reality is an artificial construction (It's all FAKE bro ;) but..reality is manifested through the measurement of information.
So you can observe the reality that manifests to us as a by-product of obtaining/measuring information through our senses BUT you could ALSO observe the screen/window into reality that you in essence are. If you focus instead not on the reality as it manifests for you but instead focus on the experience of experiencing reality then I think..I think that would at some point converge with the idea you are laying out above that 'thought' is in essence, a sense. A sense which you can separate yourself from, stand back from and observe. Which would lead to you OBTAINING information (whether useful or not) and by that definition at least for me, this would be similiar to a sense.
I do not think, and I am favourable of this belief because like you, I think it causes us a lot of stress. I do not think our thoughts are 'us' if we're speaking of a sense of 'self' I think thoughts are the ego and by that I mean thoughts are ideas, concepts, information, repeated/and/or learned logic queries that we have used to understand out 'reality' so when we enter a new situation we use the above concepts/ideas that we have formed/learned as a way of determining reality because we are still alive and that would mean that said ideas/concepts were GOOD ENOUGH to keep us alive repeatedly so we stick with them and it starts to take on an identity or become accustomed to it, so it feels like "us".
This bit hurt my head a little Similar to genetic traits being passed on that are favourable to the organism in its current environment. It doesn't matter if there is a better trait, a better way of doing something, if it WORKS nature will stick with it, why waste effort to improve on something that is good enough as is. Only a change in the fundamental systems of reality would apply enough pressure or another way to put it, would nullify enough previously potentially workable solutions that NEW and emergent information would need to be obtained in order to find a new solution to keep us alive.
Thoughts/EGO are in principle the same. You will repeat the same logic checks, you will use the same tools the same THOUGHTS to extract information from reality if it has been GOOD ENOUGH so far to keep you alive. We falsely identify this information collection as US, our thoughts, our self. It is not, it is an illusion we have constructed and I don't know why, maybe I do I don't understand enough to provide a more complete answer.
I'm at work and Im typing myself into a frazzled brain but I'd love to actually sit down and have a conversation with you on this idea if you'd be up for that?
Safe travels my friend.
1 burghbo 2017-07-27
You should watch the Westworld series on HBO
1 kumamanuma 2017-07-27
The maze is not for you
1 spiff531 2017-07-27
Guys. Guys. Guys!
Can we stop suggesting that people should waste time studying fiction?
Guys?
1 sometimesineedhelp 2017-07-27
💓 your sentiment here, but I have to say that as someone who doesn't consume a ton of entertainment media I actually appreciate these comments that let me know when there is a popular movie or TV show about something I'm interested in. I don't haven't cable, so it's not like I'll be checking it out or anything, but it's nice to feel a little more informed if it ever comes up in casual conversation...
1 spiff531 2017-07-27
You are right. It is good for red pilling people.
Until it is not.
Imagine arguing your point in court and all you can remember are plot points from waterworld.
1 sometimesineedhelp 2017-07-27
Already that is happening. :( Not in court obviously, but in conversation people will too quickly dismiss things going on in real life by saying "didn't that happen on ____ show?" and then lose all interest in paying attention to what is happening all around them. :/
1 pabbseven 2017-07-27
Westworld is a metaphor to how our subjective reality is made and how we usually dont see threat objectively but were instead blind to it. We're a self programmable bioengineered AI machine just like Westworld characters. Youre a reflection of your environment growing up, the coding of the characters represents the same thing as how you are coded now, the neurological root system youve developed from adapting to your environment.
Jordan Peterson speaks about how good movies are good because theres a deeper message to it, it speaks to us deeply and are just disguised as a movie. Its a tool used to convey something deeper.
So yea, you can learn alot from watching Westworld.
1 spiff531 2017-07-27
https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/6pvoql/comment/dktd3gn
1 pabbseven 2017-07-27
Oh youre a child. Its okay.
1 spiff531 2017-07-27
https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/6pvoql/comment/dktd3gn
1 spiff531 2017-07-27
https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/6pvoql/comment/dktd3gn
1 spiff531 2017-07-27
https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/6pvoql/comment/dktd3gn
1 spiff531 2017-07-27
https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/6pvoql/comment/dktd3gn
1 GuillotineAllBankers 2017-07-27
The how do you explain desire, especially those that arise from psychopathologies? How do you explain the experience of something like beauty, the sublime, the numinous, ie the mystery of existence? How do you measure love, hate, anger, rage, joy, sexual desire, sexual gratification, etc etc etc? Those are immeasurable and not completely reliant on our sensory input and/or past experience.
The whole point of the Turing test was to show that humans don't have a way of discerning intelligence or consciousness in machines (or themselves, tbh)
No offense, I found these discussions to be interminable ultimately, because at your core is a faith that we can make machines that our conscious. I think consciousness is dependent on life, on bodies, on organs and the experience of and forgetting of moments in life.
Human beings as algorithms ignores the outliers and madmen who have made the world and the consensual reality we inhabit what it is. Humans are not machines, and machines will never dream of electric sheep or dream at all.
If you want to believe you and all other humans are robots, feel free. I don't and never will.
1 The_Talking_Topiary 2017-07-27
Guillotine thank you, I will try my best to show you where I'm coming from - I'm still working through the idea in my own head but hopefully I can offer something of value. Maybe not though!
First. Psycho-pathologies, I must admit it wasn't part of the equation when I was thinking this through. But I think mental disorders could still arise from the underlying systems that
All of the above are either emotions, ideals, concepts or perceptions. They all manifest within the self (-I think they very well could have a 'physical' element, everything being vibrations being information and all that but that's another discussion) Beauty for instance. There is personal beauty and there is universal beauty. But universal beauty isn't technically universal beauty. There are those who wouldn't take a second glance at a beautiful sunset but for most of us, we usually admire the inherent beauty of such an event. Love. There are people born without the ability to form relationships, there are people born unable to feel guilt, to feel fear but they are universal emotions as so far as we categorize them.
The argument being, the majority of us behave within a universally agreed framework of social norms, hygiene norms, cultural norms etc. Things such as morality and beauty - For the most part they are built in but they are malleable, to an extent. Whether through experiences - which are stored as references by which the living organism uses to predict optimum paths in life or through mental disorders - by which the underlying hardware has been damaged.
Ancient times could be brutal, the Mayans carried out some dark things but generations were born and surrounded by this information their entire lives and so it's all they had to reference, it's all they had as information, your system can only run on the information is has available to it. That's why we put such emphasis on education, the more information you have, the more probable the simulations you run are going to be accurate to the degree by which your chances of staying alive are increased.
Why couldn't emotions be built in constraints on which we have some degree of power to shape?
I do not believe we are robots at all. Not at all. But I think we could be biological AI. Biological in the sense we exist in 'our' plane of reality and 'AI' in our reality we call life. It is not an attack on humanity, only a curiosity into why we are what we are. It's the why I want to know, I'm not rooting for one answer or another.
In terms of building robots as complex as people. I think it is impossible to build/run a simulation that is as complex as the reality you are running it in. But define consciousness for and then we could discuss if we could build a machine that was.
My angle is that consciousness is the result of running simulations on the quantum level - outside the boundaries of time.
1 pabbseven 2017-07-27
Youre simply a reflection of your environment growing up, who you are now are just a representation of your past in a sense. We're a selfprogrammable AI who adapts to its environment, evolution have never been about survival of the fittest its survival of the most adaptive, thats why we have people with the same hardware living as kings, beggars, Aboriginies and all in between.
Its like we're a spun up machine that when dropped in X environment it just starts writing code i.e your personality.
Imagine if we travel back in time to your birth, we copy you as a baby and send you to 10 different places in the world, different economic statuses and different families. A copy of you will live the life youve had now, the same variables of molecules etc.
After 30 years the 10 of you meet, do you think you will see 10 versions of yourself? A true you? Like a soul merging through mirroring all 10 bodies? No youre goin to see 10 different people who kinda looks the same. Your physical body will be different relative to diet and vitamines or excercise, your mental health and neurological makeup will be different.
Your thoughts, your mind and your dreams will be different, you wont think the same because youre only you because the life youve experienced. Reality is subjective, youre truly the creator of your own life.
You will have 10 different views on the world, wont even speak the same language. You can also step into the theory of parallel universes because being a reflection of your environment youre truly just one example who happen to exist, just one version with infinite amount of variables.
These categories will all be different on those 10, everything is relative is a beautiful term. Some versions of you couldve been abused, neglected of love and be filled with hate and anger, schizophrenia acts like a sleeper cell agent that is triggered by traumatic events/stress growing up so you could even be schizo and believe your reality is correct.
You start writing code by your experiences. The points you give to love, hate, anger, rage is luck of the draw. Meditation kinda helps with looking at things objectively to draw away from that and truly become free in a sense. Now youre just a Westworld character being blind to see the truth.
Dont be so arrogant. Your 20 something years of experience vs infinity? You should never assume youre correct with everything. Were basically an self programmable bio engineered machine powered by electricity anyway.