So Tired of Unfounded Anti-Israel Bias
0 2017-09-15 by callmecrazy-but
I completely understand the hatred if everything is viewed from a singular prespective, but there is ALWAYS two sides to every story, especially when it concerns Israel and the Palestinians. For a thorough examination of the facts, going all the way to its source (before Abraham), all the Israel haters should visit http://IsraelintheMiddle.com. The truth will shatter your bias to pieces.
For those who think this is just a ploy to sell the book, you can get a free copy via Kindle until 11:59:59 PDT tonight by going to Amazon here: https://www.amazon.com/Israel-Middle-Exploring-Bitterness-Jerusalem-ebook/dp/B0755P89S7/ref=sr_1_sc_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1505515300&sr=8-2-spell&keywords=davegaffney.
54 comments
1 Sabremesh 2017-09-15
I clicked the link without realising you expect us to PAY to read your hate literature! This takes chutzpah to a new level.
1 callmecrazy-but 2017-09-15
Thanks for clicking the link. You can get a free copy via Kindle until 11:59:59 PDT tonight by going Amazon here: https://www.amazon.com/Israel-Middle-Exploring-Bitterness-Jerusalem-ebook/dp/B0755P89S7/ref=sr_1_sc_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1505515300&sr=8-2-spell&keywords=davegaffney. Once you read it, then you can properly determine if it's hate literature. You'll find it's quite the opposite.
1 Throwawayy666drugs 2017-09-15
watch "war by deception" by Ryan Dawson on YouTube
1 DecentralisedPower 2017-09-15
Israel is a hideously atrocious human right violating country that supports Apartheid and the Palestinian holocaust. Every objective and independent reporter that investigated this has reported it with the numerous stories to back it up throughout the many decades now.
1 callmecrazy-but 2017-09-15
Please provide one objective, well-sourced reference. http://IsraelintheMiddle.com has a complete reference page to back up its claims. Israel has gone out of its way to appease its Arab neighbors, but they are unwilling to negotiate honestly with Israel.
1 agent570358201 2017-09-15
This is the most ridiculous thing I've read today. But I don't blame you. We are all governed by our circumstances, and in this case I'm guessing yours is exposure to Israeli state media.
1 callmecrazy-but 2017-09-15
Quite the contrary. I document my facts from UN documents. They are anything but pro-Israel.
1 agent570358201 2017-09-15
All I see is what, IMO, is a link to a bat-shit crazy book about god choosing israel.
1 callmecrazy-but 2017-09-15
Thanks for clicking the link. You'll find lots of links on the references page. You can also get a free copy via Kindle until 11:59:59 PDT tonight by going to Amazon here: https://www.amazon.com/Israel-Middle-Exploring-Bitterness-Jerusalem-ebook/dp/B0755P89S7/ref=sr_1_sc_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1505515300&sr=8-2-spell&keywords=davegaffney. Once you read it, then you can properly determine if it's crazy.
1 tonymac202 2017-09-15
your just a fool
1 rockytimber 2017-09-15
Map of Israeli appeasement: https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.catholicsforisrael.com%2Fimages%2Fstories%2Fpalestine_map.gif&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.catholicsforisrael.com%2Farticles%2Fisrael-today%2F188-israel-palestine-when-the-map-lies&docid=4bzX8L1UamvgcM&tbnid=qqpMB3lSywFV_M%3A&vet=10ahUKEwjJx_qdr6jWAhXJ1CYKHRipApQQMwgnKAAwAA..i&w=852&h=579&bih=659&biw=1366&q=map%20of%20israel%201948%20and%20today&ved=0ahUKEwjJx_qdr6jWAhXJ1CYKHRipApQQMwgnKAAwAA&iact=mrc&uact=8
1 callmecrazy-but 2017-09-15
P-R-O-P-A-G-A-N-D-A. Palestinains have repeatedly refused stateship when offered to them. Is rael did not. They followed the path proscribed by the Bristish Mandate and UN. Palestinians were given the option to have a Palestinian State ruled by 2/3 Arab majority, but they refused because they refused to share anything with the Jews. Read the 1939 British White Paper: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/brwh1939.asp.
1 rockytimber 2017-09-15
The map does not lie. Someone got more, someone got less, and the one who got less, it was not their choice.
Might as well say the Native Tribes of America chose to lose their land. We know what happened in America, and we know what happened in Israel.
So, labeling your rationale is certainly appropriately called P-R-O-P-A-G-A-N-D-A.
A map is a map, dude, its a fact!
1 callmecrazy-but 2017-09-15
That map is very deceiving because it only tells part of the story. Israel purchased land from Palestinians PRIOR to the Palestinian Mandate or Balfour Declaration. You can see a UN map here (http://archive.unu.edu/unupress/unupbooks/80859e/80859E0a.gif). Their ownership of the land is the reason the land was ultimately partitioned the way it was. Originally, according to the Treaty of Lausanne, the Jewish Home in Palestine was supposed to incorporate all of what is now known as Israel as well as Jordan, but it was partitioned into Palestine and Trans-Jordan to appease the Arabs.
In addition, Israel was attacked and prevailed in 1948, conquering both Gaza and the West Bank, but agreed to annexation by Jordan and Egypt for purposes of peace. They prevailed again in 1967 and during the Yom Kuppur War, and they returned land they captured then, as well, both in the Sinai Peninsula and Syria.
Throughout history, the victor always kept the spoils of war. Good or bad, fair or not. Israel has reversed that trend multiple times, hoping to find peace for its citizens and its neighbors. It is the surrounding nations who cannot abide the existence of Israel, and Israel is blamed when they defend themselves after being attacked.
Israel may have acted proactively in 1967, but it was only because they were surrounded on three sides by four nations (Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq) ready to attack them as they were attacked in 1948.
1 rockytimber 2017-09-15
I know the spiel, dude, and repeating it a million times doesn't make it true.
What has been created now is a Palestinian diaspora of sorts.
There is no more a solution to this than there is a solution for the natives of North, South and Central America, who also are claimed to have caused their own predicament.
You have to stick your head in a hole to pretend that the ugly facts about Israel are not a bias, but at fact. Claiming "unfounded Anti-Israeli bias" as a strategy is not going to work. Just admit the truth, its actually a lot more palatable, a lot more respectable, a lot more realistic. The hypocrisy of lies is the worst part. Like the US and Israel pretending that "moderate rebels" are why there is a war in Syria. Everyone knows that the US and Israel sponsored ISIS and other mercenaries to overthrow Assad. Everyone knows that Israel wants more territory in Syria and Lebanon. Everyone knows that Israel and the US are liars. That's pretty dumb, and will not end well. Its very corrupting to both societies, and the soul of both societies is being eaten away like a cancer. The children are going to turn out badly and act like little Hitlers already. What kind of stupid thinking was it that convinced people they could dictate reality in the face of an obvious scam. The thing that will be hated most is people like you who lie right to your face.
1 callmecrazy-but 2017-09-15
See, here we can agree. I'm not an ideologue. I think sovereign nations should be left alone. We (the USA) should not be meddling in the affairs of other sovereign states, whether it's Syria, Iraq, or Afghanistan. Neither should Israel. However, that is a separate issue.
My whole point in this post is that I'm sick and tired of the UNFOUNDED anti-Israel bias. I'm against the vile hatred without basis. I have not problem with justified, legitimate criticism.
When Israel is called an illegal occupier or piled upon by the world community for defending itself, that is unfounded. They had every right to establish Israeli statehood because it was granted to them in coordination with the UN by the victors of WWI. It was not some arbitrary, unilateral act of aggression. It certainly cannot be compared to the colonization of the Americas.
Israel was attacked by their Arab neighbors after they made their declaration, not the other way around. And they have been acting in self-defense ever since. Have they made mistakes along the way? Sure. Are they the villains they are portrayed to be? Absolutely not.
The history is complicated, but it is not as one-sided as I constantly see represented in this sub-Reddit.
1 rockytimber 2017-09-15
No its not. These countries have committed genocide and war crimes and crimes against humanity abroad, and now the same goons are back home, turning former democracies into dystopian hells.
Yeah, its a bias, but its a FOUNDED bias. That's like having a bias against the National Socialist Party of Germany, when they had done so many things well. Sorry. That's the way it is.
That's not the case and you know it.
1 callmecrazy-but 2017-09-15
Sorry, I missed your comment. Israel is ABSOLUTELY NOT illegitimate. They availed themselves of the path to statehood provided by the victors of WWI and the UN, and the UN granted them membership status as a sovereign State immediately after the 1949 Armistice agreement was signed, calling Israel a "peace-loving State." You can read the UN General Assembly Resolution 273) acceptance for yourself.
Back then, they recognized the realities of the events in real time. Today, the UN is lined with ideologues who are rewriting history and supporting the anti-Israel bias as a cover for the conflict they helped create, along with the British. The British over-committed themselves to the Arabs and Jews in order to gain their cooperation to win WWI. It worked, but it also set the stage for what we see today. Nonetheless, the ongoing conflict today is really due to the intransigence of the Muslim nations who are unwilling to recognize Israel's right to exist, as I previously mentioned in other comments.
The reality is Israel does have a right to exist and defend its citizens (Jews and Muslims). They also deserve to be called out when they do something wrong. They DO NOT deserve to be vilified for every action they take to assert their rights or defend their citizens.
It's clear I will never persuade you. That's OK. Actually, it's not my intent. I simply wanted to voice my contempt for the way Israel is unjustly characterized. They are not perfect. None of us are. But, they are not the villains conspiracy theorists portray them to be.
1 rockytimber 2017-09-15
Well, you would need to give an example of that, as I am sure there are. The points I have made about Israel are not a conspiracy, they are a fact, as in the map of what happened to the territory controlled. Watch the map continue to expand over the coming decades, all with "good" rationalizations.
By the way, even during Roman times, before the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD (approx) only 10% of Jews lived in the area of Palestine/modern Israel. 90% were living in place like where Paul of Tarsus came from (Antioch in Turkey) or Egypt, or Babylon, or even as far away as Spain and Britain.
The religious nature of claims on the area of Palestine/Jerusalem by various religions is what is ultimately at stake, and this kind of problem also happens in India, or with the sacred grounds of the Native Americans. Other than the fact that these sects have a history to their cultural heritage, the claims are essentially the reinforcement of superstition. The hatred that erupts around the defense of these religions or the conquests of these religions is probably under rated.
The leniency now being considered for Muslim customs in lands that they are now becoming a force in, such as Britain, France, Germany, etc. is exposing the hypocrisy of bending modern secular values to accomodate religious claims. In the long run, this will also backfire on Israel, not just the Muslims. And hopefully also backfire on the religious right Christians.
As far as some conspriacies that have blamed the Jews for everything from killing Christ to masterminding WWII or sponsoring the rise of the Bolsheviks and Marx, yeah, that is getting a little paranoid. On the other hand, in the US if a politician says something truthful about Israeli criminality, the Jewish lobbies will have that politician removed in short order. The power of Jewish money and influence is palpable, and should not be ignored. But then again the power of Soros money and influence, Wall Street money and influence, etc. is also palpable. This society is not controlled by the people but by powerful elites. That is going to breed paranoia in itself in anyone who is already inclined to question authority, or try to confront oppression. Have you been to Israel by the way? Are you not aware of the oppression people live under, especially since the creation of the walls?
1 callmecrazy-but 2017-09-15
Again, much we can agree upon in your comments about the abuse of power structures.
What you fail to recognize, is that Israel was not bound to relinquish the land it conquered after being attacked in 1948. It willfully conceded to UN demands in order to preserve peace. Just look at the writings of International Court Judge Stephen M Schwerbel. He makes the case very plainly that Israel has the right to all of the territories, including Gaza (where the walls were established for the protection of the Jews) and the West Bank.
The most recent example of unfounded anti-Israel bias comes from the shooting in July. Look at the one-sided reports. Even the UN General Secretary offered a biased opinion. Where is the mention of the cause of the Palestinians' deaths? Even that last link's headline tries to shed doubt on what really happened by inserting "Police Say". When Israel retaliated in self-defense, they were excoriated by politicians and the media. The Palestinians rioted, injuring over 50 people and, in one case, killing three more Jews in a stabbing attack. What isn't reported is that they were supposedly rioting for claimed discrimination of security devices preventing them from accessing Haram al-Sharif (AKA the Temple Mount), but those same devices are installed throughout the Middle East at other Muslim holy sites, including Mecca. If the rioting was about the security devices, the rioting would have ended when Israel conceded to international demands and removed the metal detectors and camers, but it didn't. Instead, the Palestinian Authority called for an additional Day of Rage. Then again, you may not believe that last link since it may be perceived as coming from Israeli State Media.
The reality is the truth of what causes what is viewed as atrocities is often suppressed because it doesn't fit the anti-Israel narrative.
For Muslims, it all comes down to Dar al-Islam vs. Dar al-Harb, or in Israel's case, Dar al-Harb Fi'lan, and the consideration of Jerusalem as Waqf territory.
1 rockytimber 2017-09-15
You really should look into what it might be like to be a member of a non-Western culture. Western legalistic perspectives were not shared by the Native American Tribes, were not shared by semi nomadic herdsmen in Palestine. Its a clash that cannot be reconciled, and it leads to racist hatred of the "less civilized" or barbaric mentality of the natives by the occupiers. There is no real comprehension. Force, technology and power win out. But quoting legal president might make you feel better about what has happened, but its not going to mean anything to the prisoners living in Gaza or the farmers cut off by the wall.
There is a sense of justice that cannot be obfuscated by all of the rationalizations of those who take sides with the Israelis. Splitting hairs to rationalize absurdities is great for lawyers, and its a way of life for believers in doctrines and ideologies. But to someone outside of this tradition, a little common sense is all it takes to realize who is actually more barbaric in practice, who is the greater hypocrite. What you are doing is trying to entrench a line of argument that even an infant would recognize as absurd. Its like the arguements used by Americans to rationalize that they did a favor to Iraq, Libya, and are actually meaning to help Syria, to rationalize the "collateral damage". Such rhetorical ramblings were also inherent to the National Socialists. The people who fall for that kind of shit are part of the problem. The people who embrace that kind of system of thinking and life all start looking the same as each other. Its not pretty. The tribal ways were not always pretty either, but they always had inferior killing technologies that seemed more barbaric, but in fact killed and destroyed only a small fraction of what has been killed and destroyed by the "civilized" societies.
1 callmecrazy-but 2017-09-15
You may not like the fact that the law supports Israel, but it does. Claims of the "less civilized" and barbarism are simply strawman arguments. They can't be used as an excuse for abhorrent behavior against Israel that ultimately gets blamed on Israel.
You can't have it both ways...
And, with that, I will respectfully disengage. I thought we were trying to have a respectful debate, offering verifiable proof of our respective claims rather than just reverting to claims of absurdity and your insistence that I know what I'm unwilling to admit, as you did in a previous comment.
Perception is reality: If you perceive it to be true, it's true to you. That is the problem with anti-Israel bias. I am willing to examine ALL the facts, not just the ones that fit my narrative.
1 rockytimber 2017-09-15
In the long run, to future generations, the facts will be more clear. Right now, the level of distrust in unsurmountable. There are plenty of reasons for bad faith on both sides. But one side will bear the greater responsibility in the longer run. And for that the irony, where the extermination of Jews less than 100 years ago warrants museums and the ongoing extermination of Palestinians elicits applause is unsurpassed. The might as well be offering bounty for scalps, and in effect, they are.
1 DecentralisedPower 2017-09-15
The only objective, well sourced reference I need is this map of how Palestine magically morphed into Israel, a document and fact by the UN documents; https://fasttimesinpalestine.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/four-panel-map.jpg
1 callmecrazy-but 2017-09-15
1 DecentralisedPower 2017-09-15
Palestine has been recognized as a country for a long time prior to Israel taking control of their land.
How would Israel feel, if a bunch of Iranian's poured into what is now annexed Palestinian lands, and called it Iranael, followed by turning the jewish population in that area into second hand repressed citizens?
You are a troll, and all you are doing is justifying a Palestinian holocaust. You are day to day killing them, impoverishing them, mocking them, racial beating and harassing them, calling them dogs and worse. You plummel their homes, you kill their families, and you try to make it impossible for them to survive your onslaught / genocide. Shame on you for even trying to justify Israels behavior.
Even a significant amount of jewish population hates israel for their extremist fascist violent actions.
You are either trolling, ignorant, or deceitful in attempting to continue the divide n conquer strategy with people choosing sides.
Either which way, we see through you, and it is only a matter of time before humanity wakes up and crumbles this violent world view based on competition, violence, oppressive hiarchies and authorities, and transition the worlds socio economic standards to a more cooperative and collaborative one.
1 callmecrazy-but 2017-09-15
Well, I would certainly like to be set aright. Can you please show me anywhere Palestine has formally been recognized as a country? Israel purchased land from Palestinians PRIOR to the Palestinian Mandate or Balfour Declaration. You can see a UN map here (http://archive.unu.edu/unupress/unupbooks/80859e/80859E0a.gif). Their ownership of the land is the reason the land was ultimately partitioned the way it was. Originally, according to the Treaty of Lausanne, the Jewish Home in Palestine was supposed to incorporate and of what is now known as Israel as well as Jordan, but it was partitioned into Palestine and Trans-Jordan to appease the Arabs.
1 DecentralisedPower 2017-09-15
when I went to school in the '90s, i remember all the textbooks had Palestine on the map. It has only been in recent years that people started changing their maps to reflect Israel in the place of where they used to have Palestine, like google maps for example which was a highly publicized move and brought upon a lot of protest world wide. How can you be so ignorant to this fact? if you are so onpoint on these facts, how can you be so ignorant to this fact? I have spoken with other people on the issue, people from Europe and South America, Asia, etc and all their text books had Palestine on the map when they were being raised as kids.
Also, just because someone bought some land from an individual, all of a sudden you have the right to change the identity of a massive section of country to another naitonality? YOu think Palestinians knew you guys had this in mind when they sold you privately some land? If that is the case, I guess parts of San Francisco where there is predominantly asian owners, they should change the land title to CHina now? How would americans feel if part of San Francisco turned into China? Or how would Canadians feel if the city of Richmond declared itself to be China as there are predominantly chinese owners of land there?
IF you give Israelis that ambition that they can transform a land region into a new country based on privately having sold some of the land, then we might as well partition up all of the cities worldwide and mark them, and give the Italian neighbourhoods and cities to Italy, and the Mexican majority neighborhoods to Mexico, etc etc according to your logic.
1 callmecrazy-but 2017-09-15
Palestine is what the region has been called for centuries. It has never been a nation. The name Palestine is derived from an ancient people called the Philistines. But, the Palestinians today do not share their ancestry of the Philistines of old.
The Israeli right to statehood was coordinated by the French, British, and United Nations in the aftermath of WWI. The Palestinians were given ample opportunity for statehood along the way but refused.
The allocation of land by the British Mandate and UN Partition was simply a reflection of land ownership at the time.
As for the textbooks, they have been rewriting history for a very long time.
1 BillyErdball 2017-09-15
You can basically INSERT WORLD POWER into your statement and would be true.
1 Putin_loves_cats 2017-09-15
Jews really should stop calling themselves the "chosen people", it hasn't and doesn't help their cause. If you (you in general) think everyone around you are assholes, you may be the asshole.
1 Mooseisabitfat 2017-09-15
I don't think it's everyone around them, but it could be. Most people aren't as obsessed with Israel and Jews as this sub.
1 Youwontsmokemypineal 2017-09-15
Maybe because they are terrorists that the U.S. sends billions to every year.
1 Mooseisabitfat 2017-09-15
I'm addressing the idea that everyone views them that way. Most don't.
1 Youwontsmokemypineal 2017-09-15
How many Israeli homes have the Palestinians destroyed?
1 callmecrazy-but 2017-09-15
You're asking the wrong question. The question is, "Why has Israel destroyed Palestinian homes?" It is ALWAYS in repsonse to an attack against Israel, never pre-emptive or solely offensive. They would prefer to live in peace, but they are attacked by the Palestinians and then blamed for responding. Recent events in July are a perfect example. 3 gunmen kill two Israeli police, and then Israel is blamed for defending itself and its citizens. The anti-Israel media simply foments the bias.
1 Youwontsmokemypineal 2017-09-15
I can ask any question I want.
1 callmecrazy-but 2017-09-15
Indeed, you may. It's a free world. But, you'll never get to the heart of the matter if you don't seek the cause rather than focusing on the effect.
1 Youwontsmokemypineal 2017-09-15
I pity you.
1 ninjatune 2017-09-15
No one cares.
1 hotdogsfromchicago 2017-09-15
How about a PDF version?
1 callmecrazy-but 2017-09-15
Sorry, I wish I could. It would violate the terms of my Kindle agreement. You can download a free Kindle reader for your PC or just about any device.
1 Ignix 2017-09-15
Facts about Israel society does not paint a pretty picture.
There is a lot of polls from the Israeli population showing widespread racism against Arabs.
Pew Research Center
Are Israeli Jews racist?
Israelis post anti-Arab racism online every 46 seconds, study finds
7amleh center publishes "The index of racism and incitement in the Israeli social media" 2016
Unpacking anti-Arab racism in Israel
Check out http://ifamericaknew.org/, lots of illuminating information there for anyone who is not familiar with the conflict.
The conflict is far more one-sided than most US media reports with far more transgressions from Israel.
A UN report is available here:
UN Report - Israeli Practices towards the Palestinian People and the Question of Apartheid
This report was suppressed shortly after publication through pressure from Israel and USA, shameful of both the USA and the UN to go along with the act.
Israeli TV Host Implores Israelis: Wake Up and Smell the Apartheid
IDF Chief Says Israel is Becoming Like Nazi Germany, Refuses to Back Down
Breaking the Silence - Israeli soldiers talk about the occupied territories
If Americans Knew - What every American needs to know about Israel/Palestine
Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions (BDS)
1 callmecrazy-but 2017-09-15
I thoroughly understand the conflict. That is why I took painstaking measures to go back to the root by showing how Israel's original conquest of Canaan contributes to the animosity we witness today. But, the unilateral bias against Israel is absolutely unfounded. When they are wrong, they should be called out, but too often, they are vilified for reacting to actions against them by the Palestinians.
The truth is that the Palestinians have chosen their predicament, as well-documented by UN records. They were given multiple opportunities to live alongside the Jews who legally purchased land from the Palestinians, but the Palestinians refused out of spite. Now, they are living with the consequences. Their situation could be reversed immediately if they simply stopped the aggression toward Israel and got serious about lasting peace.
1 rockytimber 2017-09-15
Individually many Israelis have exhibited admirable traits. No one is saying that Israelis are stupid or uneducated or lazy. No one is saying they do not have a rich culture.
But collectively, the state of Israel is taking on a religious stance and justifying the occupation based on a mythology.
Maybe there was a need for a homeland, but even that is now questionable considering that Jews have fared well in places like NYC and Miami and many other places without having created homelands there, and Israel did not help them do that.
The Jewish homeland in the Middle East should probably be phased out, even now. The world doesn't need any more secular states, it needs fewer of them. The move towards secular states in the vicinity of Israel is on the rise, and it looks like they will be Muslim. This is partly thanks to the backlash against the rise of Israel as a secular state and the Israeli supported (Israeli instigated?) US wars against the few secular Muslim populated states that had existed in the region.
Israel will not rest. The hatred against Iran is sure to raise its ugly head once again, unless the US is now too bankrupt to continue its wars. Or unless Turkey, Russia and China make it clear they will no longer tolerate more American meddling in the region. The funny thing is that the Jews in Iran are probably some of the most contented Jews anywhere. Israel and Jews everywhere should be taking lessons.
1 callmecrazy-but 2017-09-15
You hit on some excellent points, especially the rise of Islam in the region. Interestingly, it's not just the Jews who acknowledge the "mystical" granting of land to the Children of Israel. Jews claim God granted them the land. Muslims admit their god granted the land to the children of Israel, as well.
And [mention, O Muhammad], when Moses said to his people, "O my people, remember the favor of Allah upon you when He appointed among you prophets and made you possessors and gave you that which He had not given anyone among the worlds. O my people, enter the Holy Land which Allah has assigned to you and do not turn back [from fighting in Allah 's cause] and [thus] become losers." - Qur’ān 5:20-21
Why all the fighting, then? Because Muslims have a concept called Waqf, meaning that once they have conquered a territory it is consecrated as Muslim territory forever. Just read the <a href="http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp">1988 Hamas Charter</a>.
That, coupled with the <a href="http://www.thefullwiki.org/Khartoum_Resolution">Khartoum Resolution</a> paints a pretty vivid picture that no matter what Israel tries to do, they are doomed to fail. Below, is the key section:
The Arab Heads of State have agreed to unite their political efforts at the international and diplomatic level to eliminate the effects of the aggression and to ensure the withdrawal of the aggressive Israeli forces from the Arab lands which have been occupied since the aggression of June 5. This will be done within the framework of the main principles by which the Arab States abide, namely, <b>no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it, and insistence on the rights of the Palestinian people in their own country.<b>
1 StGabriel5 2017-09-15
The problem is that even if one takes into consideration the ancient 'conquest of Canaan', all of that conquest was given conditionally.
The Jews were a theocracy. Possession of the land was conditional upon obedience/love/trust of God. When they failed in that and didn't repent, they were dispossessed of the land.
This pattern can be seen across all the ancient covenants: Adamic, Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic. Each covenant contained land possession as conditional upon obedience.
Cut to the new covenant. Many Jews reject Christ; thereby not fulfilling the ancient covenental terms. The temple is crushed in 70 A.D. and the diaspora begins. Kicked out of the land.
The current 'possession' of the land was a land-grab; it is not justified civilly. It is not justified morally. It is not justified theologically.
1 callmecrazy-but 2017-09-15
I understand what you're saying, but you're only partially correct. The Abrahamic and Davidic covenants were not given preconditions.
Genesis 17:1-8 (ESV) When Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless, that I may make my covenant between me and you, and may multiply you greatly.” Then Abram fell on his face. And God said to him, “Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations. No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you. And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.”
It's confirmed again as an everlasting covenant in Genesis 17:13.
The writer of Hebrews even confirms the unchangeable nature of God's promise to Abraham, so we know it was understood in New Testament times.
Hebrews 6:13-17 (ESV) For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself, saying, “Surely I will bless you and multiply you.” And thus Abraham, having patiently waited, obtained the promise. For people swear by something greater than themselves, and in all their disputes an oath is final for confirmation. So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath…
Despite the Jews' rejection of Jesus as the Messiah, He has not cast them off forever. Their rejection allowed for Christians to be grafted into God's promise, as Paul confirms.
Romans 11:25-31 (ESV) Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.
God's convenant to David was also an eternal covenant, which was and is being fulfilled by Jesus.
2 Samuel 7:8-16 (ESV) …‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, I took you from the pasture, from following the sheep, that you should be prince over my people Israel. And I have been with you wherever you went and have cut off all your enemies from before you. And I will make for you a great name, like the name of the great ones of the earth. And I will appoint a place for my people Israel and will plant them, so that they may dwell in their own place and be disturbed no more. And violent men shall afflict them no more, as formerly, from the time that I appointed judges over my people Israel. And I will give you rest from all your enemies. Moreover, the LORD declares to you that the LORD will make you a house. When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.’”
Isaiah confirms the fulfillment of the David covenant through the Messiah.
Isaiah 9:2-7 (ESV) The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shone. You have multiplied the nation; you have increased its joy; they rejoice before you as with joy at the harvest, as they are glad when they divide the spoil. For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, you have broken as on the day of Midian. For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.
That is why Jesus uses the imagery of Isaiah's prophecy when referring to himself.
John 8:12-13 (ESV) Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” So the Pharisees said to him, “You are bearing witness about yourself; your testimony is not true.”
Matthew 11:28-30 (ESV) Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
If you read Luke 21, you will see that Jesus warns of the destruction of the Temple and the signs preceding His return. The time in between is described as the time of the Gentiles. He declared that "Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" (v. 24). He specifically says these are the days of vengeance (vs. 22), which correlates to Isaiah 34:8.
Isaiah 34:8 (ESV) For the LORD has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
God has not forsaken His promise to the Jews. He has chosen Judah as His inheritance (Zechariah 2:10-13), and He promises to restore them based on His everlasting covenant (Jeremiah 32:36-44).
Ezekiel also confirms God's everlasting covenant with the Jews.
Ezekiel 16:59-60 (ESV) “For thus says the Lord GOD: I will deal with you as you have done, you who have despised the oath in breaking the covenant, yet I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish for you an everlasting covenant.
1 StGabriel5 2017-09-15
It is everlasting from God's perspective; the Israelites still needed to live up to their part.
I noticed that you conveniently left those verses off - the one which follow and talk about Israel maintaining her part of the covenant: Because Genesis 17 goes on to say:
Likewise, the verses in Hebrews also says:
This is talking about the unchanging nature of God. The unchanging nature of His oath and the fact that when He makes and oath He makes it according to Himself, since there is no one higher than Him.
This means the unchangeable character of HIS purpose, not the 'unchangeable character or the Israelites' purpose. You are confusing these two things. The Israelites were thrown out of the land MANY TIMES throughout the OT for not living up to their end of the covenant.
I'm not sure how any serious student of the Bible ignores that.
You are twisting and distorting the plain meaning of Scriptures to come up with a scandalous and false view of Israel. The Church is the New Israel. Israel must accept the precepts of the Church and the Gospel. She does not need to be 'in Palestine' to do that. Indeed, she does not even have biblical grounds for being in Palestine anymore, since there is NO MORE NEED FOR A TEMPLE. Jesus' body is and was the final temple, which was why the curtain was torn at His death.
You have thrown down a number of Scripture verses; just by doing so, and cherry-picking through verses though, does not mean that your interpretation of them is correct.
1 callmecrazy-but 2017-09-15
Of course it's up to the Jews to follow after God, including acceptance (now) of the Messiah to inherit the promise, but God's promise to Abraham and David were not like the other covenant promises that were contingent upon obedience. That is clear from all of scripture, not jus the ones I included. We actually might be on ethe same page. These forums don't lend themselves to full expression in such short snippets.
1 StGabriel5 2017-09-15
I'm glad you see that Jews needed to follow God (as we all do).
However, the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants did also include parts that were contingent upon obedience, as even the Genesis 17 passage demonstrates.
This is substantiated by many Church fathers as well.
https://earlychurchfathers.wordpress.com/tag/chronology/
Pope Benedict's Theology of Covenant: https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7878
http://reasonabletheology.org/5covenants/ I don't agree with Protestantism whatsoever, but these is at least something of a decent treatment of the covenants, although he is missing Adamic. This at least shows that there were conditions to all of the OT covenants.
All the best...
1 JesusIsForPretend 2017-09-15
Unfounded? Hahaha you clearly haven't seen the many examples of human rights disasters that have taken place in the West Bank over history. There is definitely a Palestinian genocide happening right now... How can someone be so thick?
1 brildenlanch 2017-09-15
Think reaaaaaaaalllllly hard.
1 redditeditard 2017-09-15
How is this post not blog spamming?
1 grndzro4645 2017-09-15
Lol @ unfounded. Go read some real history.
1 callmecrazy-but 2017-09-15
Please provide one objective, well-sourced reference. http://IsraelintheMiddle.com has a complete reference page to back up its claims. Israel has gone out of its way to appease its Arab neighbors, but they are unwilling to negotiate honestly with Israel.
1 BillyErdball 2017-09-15
You can basically INSERT WORLD POWER into your statement and would be true.
1 Mooseisabitfat 2017-09-15
I don't think it's everyone around them, but it could be. Most people aren't as obsessed with Israel and Jews as this sub.
1 callmecrazy-but 2017-09-15
Palestine is what the region has been called for centuries. It has never been a nation. The name Palestine is derived from an ancient people called the Philistines. But, the Palestinians today do not share their ancestry of the Philistines of old.
The Israeli right to statehood was coordinated by the French, British, and United Nations in the aftermath of WWI. The Palestinians were given ample opportunity for statehood along the way but refused.
The allocation of land by the British Mandate and UN Partition was simply a reflection of land ownership at the time.
As for the textbooks, they have been rewriting history for a very long time.