If truth is meaningless, and if what you’re saying is true, it’s also meaningless

Anyone care to refute this?

We are still here, arent we ?

Truth is not meaningless, otherwise the world government and media wouldn't try to paper it over with lies so much on a day to day basis.

We're fighting a flexible, adaptive system of oppression that mutates like a virus each time your try to pin it down.

People are divided and conquered.

Their minds are corrupted because they are too weak.

Far more defend this system than question it.

No, even worse. Our society is shaped like a pyramid. The system is established and now the goal is just for everyone to get a capo position / Everyone just tries to get on top out of own greed for power. There is no escape.

It all must crash burning down.

Words are words

The truth is all of us living amongst rules governed by ourselves and no overlords. The truth is a world of community, not lords.

Whenever your power goes out do you go outside and see if your neighbors are also outside to see what’s happening? In that moment it’s the survival of humanity. We don’t need higher beings, we need a community that relies on each other and rules each other equally.

I’m going off on a tangent but why the fuck do we have to mow our lawns? Why aren’t we all making a culture where instead of mowing, we use our land for planting food?

I am a libertarian socialist, I believe that the rules should be democratically decided by our own communities. Capitalism doesn’t seek to help other but only to enrich a few. I’m sorry but you can’t change my mind on this.

We don’t need this technology, we don’t need to hate each other/classes. That is the divide and conquer.

I never said it would be easy, did you notice my anecdote about your power going out? I knew you were going to say this because I know my “fantasy” will not come until a revolution happens. And while looking at how horrible the poverty rate is going in America, it will happen. The system will be broken. I’m open to thinking trump fixes this “system” so that we all live in the golden age of America, where you can work ONE job and afford your a car, home, college and other living amenities.

But that in itself is a fucking fantasy, you wanna know why? Because capitalism fucking eats itself, these oligarchs are gaining more and more capital. Do you really think they’re going to give it up and redistribute it? Fuck no.

I hate trump. I just said I’m open to the idea of the mass hysteria of trump thumpers thinking trump will bring us to the golden age. But do I think it will happen? No.

all the truth i was taught was meaningless...untill i realized the truth, now i use the lies to guide the way.

Oh my. I wouldn't call truth "meaningless" - more like undervalued; because I do think real truth exists - not just subjective postmodern interpretations of truth, or the idea of constructed truth, but hard facts and moral rights and wrongs. I think TPTB have engineered society so that we will think truth is meaningless and merely subjective, that there is no real thing as facts or right and wrong. It's a demoralizing psyop that saps away our values and encourages us to rationalize the behaviors of elites and TPTB when we see something awful happening and think "welp, that's just the way the world is, always was, and always will be..." I think the best way to defeat TPTB is by living as kind of a life as possible. They don't expect us to live our lives for others - they want us to turn inward and isolate ourselves, hoping we will think there is no point to person-to-person relationships. That way we can't discover that we actually have more in common than we thought, and that together we can impose radical changes for the better.

Truth has as much value as you individually assign it. We may both assign it a different value hence the problem.

Anyone care to refute this?

Yes, by saying that truth has no other purpose than itself. Insofar as it is a natural qualia, it is comparable to beauty, or love. Beauty or love are not merely archaic evolutionary artefacts: they are a natural byproduct of consciousness; they are/serve their own purpose; they are "truer" than ugliness/hate (respectively), and they exist in absolute terms (insofar as every child recognizes them in the extremes, or insofar as stating Beethoven's symphonies carry the same value as his turds would imply mental illness by definition).

If you decide to live in conscience (i.e. in sincerity/truth), you do not do it because it is practical or comfortable. Indeed the truth is often dangerous, impractical in a sick society. Conforming to the big lie is MUCH easier (in terms of immediate, material satisfaction).

Not so. Again, this becomes evident in the extremes.

Do you believe Beethoven's 12 symphonies are indistinguishable from his daily turds? Do you think assigning a higher value to them is merely subjective/cultural?

In truth, all children recognize injustice, love, beauty - across geography and history. Heck, even plants grow better while "listening" to Mozart. These things exist therefore in nature; indeed there are natural constants in the realm of human action, as there are in material sciences.

I realize this is however difficult to accept if one's existential axiom is that matter (the brain) secretes consciousness, and that the world is reducible to matter. If this is your view, you should realize materialism is a very modern invention/religion; even Enlightenment anticlericalists/secularists (such as Voltaire) didn't hold such extremist views. It came later, with Marxism/Leninism.

Music is true as maths is true. And actually this is an excellent example of the cross-over between the "material" and "sensible" realms; music and harmony are numbers expressed in another form; your "soul's" (or let's say right hemisphere's) ability to enjoy music (i.e. perceive beauty in air pressure waves) is directly comparable to your rational mind (left hemisphere) being able to count and finding order (coherence) in number strings.

I agree with you. A human being capable of "seeing" music would certainly be somewhat of a magus. Similarly some people see numbers in all their colors and personality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia

Excellent! I applaud you!

Dude... Murphy destroyed you, I hope you get that sometime later. Maybe read his replies two three times again.

Good op, nice discussion, but Murphy won. lol

That's still wrong, no?

"Knowing the truth in this system is meaningless" would be what you are looking for.

But ok, I see that's splitting hairs. Some of your arguments stand pretty strong.

Murphys explanation just was so on spot. Very well worded. Didn't use one word more than necessary.

Still, since it didn't cover everything you were actually talking about some of your points still stand.

"It's a numbers thing" Is very true and I'm concerned about that as well. Anyways, I wouldn't look at the situation as being totally hopeless.

"They" try to make us feel like knowing the truth is meaningless and by convincing us about that they become right more and more.

But it's still far from being game over. You might be seeing a lot of truths bouncing off of society, but that doesn't mean, that one true word spoken by one person couldn't change the world/ system back to how it should be in no time.

Romantik, maybe naive, I know, but I think it's true.

Somebody has done a good job reading their Plato!

And why are we doing nothing about? We should be organizing

I don't think truth is meaningless. I think we live in a world of intentional obfuscation that hides it plain sight - it is simply harder to distinguish amidst the camouflage. It's the evolved science of state sponsored propaganda that has gone from "manufactured consent" to "manufactured polarization". Project for a moment how evolved it must be at this point considering its beginnings in early 20th century judging from the mission statement in the first paragraph of Bernays' 1928 work, Propaganda

Adam Curtis talks about this concept in his documentary HyperNormalisation

I think you basically discovered the whole thing, and why people on high positions can be willingly (or not) ignorant of this facts cause it doesn't serve any monetary or social value.

We are all in the same race for a better life, people don't get time for distractions.

Truth is meaningless when it is not acted on.

Some don't want to acknowledge what is true, because it will require change. Some don't know what is true, because it is hidden. Some know what is true but continue on a path that rewards those in power (personally I think this is a cause to some unhappiness). Some know what is true, and don't know what to do next.

We get lost in the details of truth. It was the democrats, it was Trump, the Russians, Israel, satanists, communists, marxists, capitalists.....at the core, people with money have power, and the system currently empowers those people. We are too busy fighting over what all of them say instead of finding a way to unite.

Truth is relative. Definitely meaningless.

Sure money has large influence except in the event of natural disasters and the consequences of reality which have no fare for the “Dollar”.

Truth can ONLY be realized or experienced. It's always been that way but somewhere along the lazy chain of evolution, humans started depending on others to disseminate the 'truth' for them (religion, science, history, astrology etc).

And as much as most 'teachers and pontificaters' might've had good intentions....it just no longer applies. Because we can't tell purposeful lies & deception from truth.

We're at a crossroads of accepting regurgitated lies and fantasy or.............seeking out our own truth, largely thanks to the world wide web.

And what I've personally come to find out is, there's more than one truth.

What you really see is your mind. It's a story in your mind that you believe. Then you see the world through that filter. Go watch some ants for a few hours. Lose yourself. Commune with reality in the present. Primary reality is reality. When I'm immersed in the feel of my lover's thigh, there is nothing but softness and love. When I'm immersed in painting, there is nothing but observation, creativity, and focus in the present.

Truth = that which exists. Lie=imaginary thing.

A system where truth is meaningless wouldn't be hellbent on censoring and discrediting the sources of what it deems "Fake News".

In truth, this system is meaningless!

It’s Monday, shills are back?

Truth is never meaningless. 2+2=4 even if the world demands you say it is 5. The person who can hold to the truth internally, while “playing the game” will always do better than his peers.

I always thought of a person like Bill Clinton to illustrate this point. Bill is a person who (in my opinion) must is very real and hard with himself to develop such polished communication, but he is super forgiving with everyone else and tells people whatever they want to hear. I see this kind of guy as an example of how far you can go if you remain real with yourself and take everything as “feedback” so you are constantly improving.

Basically, don’t expect everyone to operate at your level. Take the truth you know and use it to make yourself superior. Discontent is the first sign of greatness.

> When power is everything, truth is meaningless.

This sounds similar to the post-modernist nihilistic thought that Jordan Peterson does a good job of tearing apart. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jordan+peterson

Anyone care to refute this?

Maybe ask on /r/philosophy?

Ignorance is strength

Now that you know how the system really works, are you going to take advantage of it or are you going to continue bitching about it and really do nothing?

Anyone care to refute this?

Truth is important in your personal relationship with yourself & people you care to keep close to you.

For example:

If I lie to my spouse.....I have to remember all of those lies. That is sure to screw up the trust they have with me....if I forget the lie later in the future. That matters because I love my spouse.

Another example I see a ton in people in the United States in particular:

They love to model the extremes but when under social pressure they flop & to their detriment semi-permanently readjust their behaviour. Deciding the truth about who you are is important. Not just "This is who i am + who i am when I flop"

You see a ton of people play slight asshole with "I'm a badass!!!!!" persona until someone more confident & put together enters the situation.

That person doesn't have to state anything because it's evident whatever happens, it will be fine. The other 'badass' phony lies to themselves & modifies their behavior to accommodate the new set of circumstances instead of continuing with their perceived tough person approach. Then maybe later they find themselves in situation where they can get away with their facade persona again because they are around people who are less put together.

They revert to the highlights persona again instead of correcting the original defect......which is lying to themselves about who they are CONSISTENTLY.

If in the process of maturation I tell myself stories about how strong/fearless/smart/wonderful/friendly i am & then find myself in a situation where I I got caught out (outside of my perceived 'truth' about myself) I consider that a lie that needs to be corrected by my learning from it & practicing it into permanacy.

Most people seem to rationalize it away & slightly modify their goal of 'who they believe they are' & continue to switch back & forth. I think that is a big mistake & I used to do that as well.

If you keep a bad habit of lying to yourself.....who can you ever really trust? If your standards are built on shifting bed of sand it is a weak structure & you will lose a lot of time to trust in your own judgement.

Quid est veritas?

I agree with most of what you have said here. Although you dont directly endorse Marxist principles, your comment seems to be influenced by Marxist principles of class warfare. I completely disagree with this notion and would argue this idea has been discredited long ago. You can no longer look at the world through such an antiquated binary model that has been proven in practice to be obsolete, but putting that aside for the moment I will address the portions of your comment that I do agree with, mainly your notion of 'truth' as it currently exists and the notion of money as the supreme power.

Money clearly is god, now more than ever. Everything is for sale including public opinion. Over generations there are complex mechanisms and business models that have evolved with the sole purpose creating whatever truth corporate interests want to portray. Its not ethical, but it achieves profit and thats all that matters. Money is ambivalent. Its just a tool. It may not be a good thing, bit it's important to be objective and emotionally unattached enough to acknowledge the reality of the situation without digressing into what should be, or what is right or wrong, or allowing moral predispositions to interfere with the material realities.

This is why I have a hard time getting upset about Russia purchasing a few view bots or posting fake comments in news articles. This type of abuse has been going on since the internet was created and in many ways the internet was designed to accommodate this kind of abuse of truth. The crux of the argument is basically that we have been abusing truth and viewbotting and posting fake comments for years, but somehow it's uniquely evil if Russia or some other foreign power decides to do this?

If the American populous is so gullible that our election outcome can be altered by a few viewbots or fake washington post article comments then we kind of deserve what we get. This is the result of living in a capitalist society in the age of globalization. This is the system we have endorsed and proliferated across the world. It used to be might makes right, but now it's money makes right. We dont discriminate against the money spender based on his national origin or race, at the end of the day the only color that matters is green. When you open up the world for foreign investment and encourage it, we cant be angry if corporate financial interests want to buy a commodity for their own benefits, and in this case the commodity was public opinion. If we have designed a system that turns public opinion into buyable and sellable commodity, how can we be upset when someone chooses to invest in this commodity for their own interests?

Its basically an admission that yes, we have been lying and manipulating public opinion by buying the truth for years to get people to buy our products or to buy into democrat or republican, or buy into false patriotism and the mass perpetuation of military conglomeration, but that's somehow okay because that's good old fashioned American manipulation being done by Americans to AMericans, but as soon as foreign dollars enter into the equation, now it's portrayed as evil foreign political subversion.

We cant have it both ways. It's really based on two things. One is the idea of an Amero-centric perspective. We have been buying and selling public opinion in foreign nations for years. It's perfectly okay for us to subvert the political process of foreign nations and buy radio stations, and newspapers to support rebellions in other countries. We have been doing that since the 20's and earlier. Again based on the principle that money makes right. Big bank takes little bank. Our system functions now in part based on the principle that money itself is the representative democracy. The unspoken notion is that if you have accumulated enough money by having people support you by buying your products, then you deserve to have influence because the people have endorsed your values. Money then itself becomes the moral authority and the judge, jury and executioner.

I think the second reason for the Russia outrage is a mass naiveity on the part of the American public about how this process of buying opinions overseas really works and the fact that we have benefitted from this for decades. But dont do that to us. It's a rediculous double standard and the false, selective moral outrage it has engendered is really just laughable. So often we have controlled the money so when we have used it to subvert the truth, we consider the good guys to have won, but when a foreign power finally achieves similar money to subvert truth, now it's morally wrong?

But at the end of the day, its our own fault. If we hadnt proven ourselves over time that we could be so easily manipulated en masse, and have such predictable responses to certain stimulus, we wouldnt be such an attractive investment entity. We fall for it hook line and sinker everytime. Again money itself is ambivalent. Investment dollars flow into things that are stable and predictable. Theres no more stable and predictable notion than the fact that the American public can be duped into doing or supporting anything even its directly opposed to their own interests.

There is a quote that is attributed to H.L. Menken that sums it up pretty well.- "No one has ever gone broke under-estimating the intelligence of the AMerican people."

As the average person, there is no litmus test for truth. Theres no way to fully validate, or confirm or deny what we are being told. Even if you think critically and question everything, you can still only rely on your intuitions, which can also be subtly manipulated. We are living in a post truth world, and have been for quite some time.

Truth is the only thing that matters.

I may be a hypocrite but the next person I pass info onto might not be one, and the people that choose to make real change will have an easier path if everyone in their way knows the truth as well.

Telling thr truth in times of universal deceit will be a revolutionary act - George Orwell

The truth is found within young padawan

Music is true as maths is true. And actually this is an excellent example of the cross-over between the "material" and "sensible" realms; music and harmony are numbers expressed in another form; your "soul's" (or let's say right hemisphere's) ability to enjoy music (i.e. perceive beauty in air pressure waves) is directly comparable to your rational mind (left hemisphere) being able to count and finding order (coherence) in number strings.

Dude... Murphy destroyed you, I hope you get that sometime later. Maybe read his replies two three times again.

Good op, nice discussion, but Murphy won. lol