Surely you meant to post this at r/politics

I'm not trying to pick a side, but the original argument like 25 years ago was that the willingness of illegal immigrants to work unskilled jobs drove down those wages, making it harder for US citizens to earn liveable wages. Part of the issue was also that a lot of the US dollars they earned were leaving the country instead of stimulating the US economy, but that's been happening, to some degree, for a while.

Pretty sure the entire farming industry would collapse if they had to pay people 8-9 dollars an hour to pick tomatoes.

As someone that used to manage kitchens a couple decades ago I would much rather have a non or broken English speaking Mexican or Guatemalan working along side me than a young white or black guy and I'd pay them the same. This is just personal experience and I'm sure it's subjective but they showed up on time, busted their ass, and were 100 times more dependable than the alternative.

Not the ones I've worked in, it's like the exact opposite. Doing bare minimum, high/tweaked out, coming in hungover, calling in sick frequently, hanging out on he phone, bad attitudes, getting a lot of send backs, walking off and disappearing, etc... We use to put ads up, now we rely on word of mouth. Haven't had to fire anyone in a year coming up.

Salaried jobs are typically skilled positions though. With unskilled jobs, higher supply of labor means lower demand (in this case that translates to lower wages). There are smaller divisions within unskilled labor as well. Keeping with the restaurant example - that's why front of house workers, on average, make more than cooks. I'm definitely not saying one job is harder than the other either. Again, I'm not here to defend an opinion, just wanted to point out the other side because OP was over-generalizing. This post is better suited for r/economics or r/politics anyway.

Pretty sure the entire farming industry would collapse if they had to pay people 8-9 dollars an hour to pick tomatoes.

I'm sure this was the argument cotton farmers used to justify keeping slavery legal in the 1860's.

What you describe is part of what right wing/middle way media has been shoveling for 30 years along with 'right to work', unions are corrupt, tax cuts for job creators creates trickle down, abstinence works, tough on crime, lock em up, deregulation, greed is good and on and on. All helping Americans fuck themselves to the slowest wage growth since the gilded age while funneling money to the top 3%.

I disagree.

Care to elaborate on this voluminous response?

So basically what you are saying is that we need slave labor. Glad to hear you still support slavery.

You need to look into it more. They drive down wages for jobs. They live ten per house or apartment don't pay taxes. Get benefits that Americans don't get. They do work but Americans would do those jobs also.

How clueless are you?

Americans having been moving to cities in droves for over a century to get out of argicultural work.

If Americans wanted rural jobs, we’d see a huge shift to people moving to where agricultural work goes.

Yeah, that doesn’t happen

Not how that works but ok. Some people want out of the city you know.

Do you think the immigrants live next to the farm no they commute to work just live everyone else would.

don't pay taxes.

What is one way to make sure someone pays taxes? Ship them to another country after they have been here for years generating money or get a path to legalization so the IRS can make sure we recoup some of the accidental investment?

also not accounting for the amount taken out of their checks that are never claimed as a return because they don't file taxes.

Illegal Immigrants pay taxes and often overpay because they do not file a return. What are these “benefits that Americans don’t get”?

But if you're talking about zero tolerance for illegal immigration, up to the point of putting children in cages and building a giant, useless wall,

The wall isn't going to be useless. It will stop illegal immigration.

then we also have to talk about paying nine bucks for a bag of carrots and a grand a week for daycare.

What a silly statement. There are plenty of people in need of employment. Illegals do not contribute in any way that can't easily be replaced. They are a net sink on the economy.

Cheap carrots doesn't offset the tax dollars a legal citizen generates.

Well said!

Geotus? Nice resist propaganda.

The wall isn't going to be useless. It will stop illegal immigration.

The wall that will be a Line right? As in it will have two end points? And those ends will be at two bodies of water? God I wonder how anyone will ever get around it..... oh wait maybe just go around it?

And if you think illegals don’t contribute in any way that can’t be easily replaced you may want to visit a real farm some time, they work for less than any American would be willing to work for and they are content doing it..... thinking they could “easily” be replaced is ignoring the reality that the American agricultural industry basically went from slave labor to underpaid immigrant labor....

Hell my tiny town in the mid west more than doubles in size every fall when the migrants come to help with harvest and I can say first hand it would be nearly impossible to replace them with Americans without costing everyone a lot more at the grocery store.....

I’m not disagreeing that things can be done to protect American skilled labor jobs like construction, roofing, painting, cooking etc but some jobs like field hands are a win-win for everyone, if they’re happy making $0.85 for every 90lb box of oranges they pick then right on because I like being able to afford oranges..... why rock the boat with this belief that Americans will happily do these jobs they are not even applying for in the first place...

The wall isn't going to be useless. It will stop illegal immigration.

Illegal immigration is at an all time low.

A very very large amount of illegals come in through the borders themselves.

The wall is a feels based reaction, not one grounded in reality.

Its a yuge waste of money.

Cheap carrots doesn't offset the tax dollars a legal citizen generates.

Which is why we need to recoup our investment even if that investment is accidental.

So we spend years educating people allowing them to generate money in our economy and reap the benefits, then ship them off to another country that gains from our investment.

Make them legal in some fashion and tax them.

Hi, I want to help you, your consciousness of facts seems to be empty

The US has had a net decrease of immigrant of Mexico and he had one for some time. More people that immigrated here are in fact leaving

Damm you democrats sure get all pissy every time we take your slaves away.

I'm not in favor of exploiting people for slave labor. Call me old fashioned.

Except for low wage American citizens...

Firstly let me just start by saying I'm a minority myself. I was born here but I'm Dominican.

My father has a small construction business through employees he has hired throughout time are told to pay their taxes, and even the contractor he works for hires illegals and makes them pay taxes. And it's a huge multi million dollar business.

With that being said a lot of these guys have straight up told me that they came through border patrol checkpoints. Vast amounts of these illegals wound up close to checkpoint locations by our imagination services and were illegally allowed to enter the country by of course paying a hefty fine. Typically $5-10,000.

I'm more than sure this type of shit goes on still.

There are multiple issues here and this is one of them. I'm all for people coming to this country to make something of themselves and their families, as long as you aren't a low life piece of shit I welcome all. I know I've made a decent success of myself and it wouldn't happen anywhere else.

I swear to god the marching orders on this family separation bullshit is insane on reddit today. Every sub, every outlet all blasting out the same hit pieces today its amazing! It wont work but fuck is it amazing to watch in real time. They manipulates these little goofs so easily!

Cracks me up that it's all comming from the same people who want to hand out abortions like candy...

They are very transparent with their feigned outrage.

I sure do captain american! Its been happening for years dude, its nothing new.

Do you look under your bed every night just to make sure George Soros isn't there?

The fuck you on about?

But I thought there was consensus about caring for the children here? Wasn’t that what pizzagate was about? Saving the children?

Right on time with the "what about pizzagate".

Funny how that works, when calling out the hypocrisy of an administration with a narrative pushed by the base of the administration.

Funny how that works, when calling out the hypocrisy of an administration with a narrative pushed by the base of the administration.

Oh man I totally didnt know I was a administration! This is exciting news!

Congrats! You still haven’t addressed my argument?

You still haven’t addressed my argument?

LOL you had a argument in there? You were building a sweet pizza strawman and I bailed, did I miss something?

That was the answer I was looking for. Sad to see it was all political theater and not for the kids.

Just we know were on the same page I want you to explain to me why I should be outraged. These people live in a third world country decide to have kids THEN decide this isnt what they want. Drag the poor fucker across a continent pay human trafficker to smuggle them and my outrage is with the US being forced to take away the kids? At what point is it OK to blame the immigrant for the continuous terrible decision making? Are we suppose to give the kid back to this person incapable of making safe decisions for their kids? Do we give the kid to the coyote to give it another go across the desert? What the fuck do you want?

So now you’re blaming the parent for wanting a better life for their kid, the one they couldn’t have?

That’s rich.

I asked you many questions in there, either buck up and put a handle on your outrage and fucking answer them or piss off.

You’re blaming parents for having kids. Strike one against you man; basic human biological reproduction. You then blame them for wanting to better their lives and their children’s lives, just like I’m sure you do every day by working harder at your job; strike two. You then somehow blame the parent for being separated from their child thanks to a Trump administration policy, saying the immigrants should have known better? Strike three, you’re out.

And to think you feigned caring for people. It was all political motivation.

You are incapable of answer the most simple questions then want to give me strikes like some kind of SJW gestapo. Pure scum.

And you told me to handle my outrage, tsk tsk. This was fun while it lasted!

I'm not even outraged its just super annoying.

I answered all your questions, I’m failing to see the issue.

I swear to god the marching orders on this family separation bullshit is insane on reddit today.

Maybe because it's actually happening and is in the news.

Maybe because it's actually happening and is in the news.

Great observation buddy! Now tell me, since you are so well informed by the news, how long have they been doing this for?

Pilot program was in the Rio Grande valley in summer 2017.

Except the poor and middle class workers.

The definition of a criminal is a person that breaks the law. By illegally crossing the border and staying they are automatically criminals. Don’t try to sugar coat the situation because of your sociopolitical opinions.

So really you want to further subjugate rather than allowing legal entry.

Except for the taxpayers who pay for the social services and health care illegal immigrants consume.

Well said!

Illegal immigrants are not allowed to use social services except, WIC, that is a food program for Women Infants and Children.

U gotta pay for actual citizens as well. Ive known more citizens on assistance than illegals, and the illegals that manage assistance still work.......pssst, lotta major companies still hire illegals, why dont you blame them instead of latinos for your grievances.

America is at war. Now, let me lecture you on how open borders aka illegal immigration is great..

Wage suppression and a workforce made up of millions of people with no rights is horrible for all and any worker.

As a liberal and mostly Democratic voter I am opposed to illegal immigrant labor and the excessive number of legal visa workers as well.

Instead of importing technology workers we most certainly should be training our own workers.

But this nation's oligarchs want a labor made entirely up of foreign workers who have no rights and can be sent home if they don't like the below living standard pay.

http://thezman.com/wordpress/?p=14137

The biggest cost shifting racket today is the use of imported labor. Recruiting, hiring and training Americans is expensive, because America is a first world society.Citizens expect first world working conditions. That makes it hard to shift labor costs onto the public, so companies prefer foreign labor. That way, they can pay lower wages and they avoid having to deal with employees who know their rights or have ideas about forming a union. Plus, foreign workers don’t sue for things like discrimination or poor safety conditions.

There’s a cost to this sort of predatory labor system, but those costs are shifted to the public in the form of depressed wages and high social costs. The migrants in every hospital emergency room are not having their bills picked up by their employer. When Pablo decides to get drunk and drive over an American, his employer is not paying the victim’s family or covering the cost of Pablo’s incarceration. The fact is, there is nothing more expensive to a society than cheap labor, it’s just hidden from public view.

Including those who have died at the hangs of illegal gang members right? Shut the fuck up, get back to me when you move out of white suburbia and move to a majority hispanic town with gang problems. I dont want more fucking gangbangers running free around my town.

You say this until your country, your state, your city is flooded with an excess of people. Displacement is a real thing. throughout history it has been a phenomena and occasionally a problem

You’re blaming parents for having kids. Strike one against you man; basic human biological reproduction. You then blame them for wanting to better their lives and their children’s lives, just like I’m sure you do every day by working harder at your job; strike two. You then somehow blame the parent for being separated from their child thanks to a Trump administration policy, saying the immigrants should have known better? Strike three, you’re out.

And to think you feigned caring for people. It was all political motivation.