Car companies could of been off oil and gas by now but its big business and nobody is getting in their way unless they have more money which isnt the case unless you are a billionaire like musk. Whats even worse is the prescription big business. Its all about profit. Not health or safety.

Cars could have never used gas at all. When Henry Ford started building cars, most were steam or electric powered. It was the popularity of Ford's cheap cars that caused the other producers to switch to gasoline.

"It was the popularity of Ford's cheap cars that caused the other producers to switch to gasoline."

Isnt that the answer to your question?

The gas/diesel ic engine was one of the best inventions for humanity. Don't discount it.

Uh...the battery charge only got you a few miles, at low speed. STEAM?? LOLOLOLOL. "Honey, fire up the boiler, we gotta leave in 2 hours"

Have you actually looked into the well designed steam cars? I doubt it. You didn't wait two hours. Jay Leno has excellent examples on his Youtube channel.

HEE HEE! Go ahead and build one then.

Awful.

OBVIOUSLY, gas and diesel were more efficient, otherwise electric would have been heavily-invested in. Can you imagine a bulldozer being powered by a frikkin battery? No.

Companies invest in stuff that can make them money. Get it?

Why the fuck are you even on this sub? Seriously. You saw the OP post and the context. You see the context of these posts. Yet you're still playing stupid about it. Companies invest in stuff that make money? Really? That's it? That's the come back? No shit. The point here was companies will do anything to make sure competitive ideas, solutions or even longevity (through planned obsolescence) gets subverted.

Yeah, I can imagine a bulldozer powered by batteries, or steam or oh here's a thought, it could still use gas or diesel for heavy equipment while using alternate means for other vehicles. Is every single vehicle on the road right now the exact same engine wise? NO. We weren't talking about fucking bulldozers. We were talking about cars.

You clearly don't want to bother to think about any other way other than your narrow viewpoint.

You need more Xanax in your life, Bubbles.

100 years development on battery tech would have quickly yielded results in longer milage, instead we got 100 years development on gas/diesel engines.

All that oil sitting underground is useless otherwise. Why NOT use it up?

Well you see there is this little thing called Global Warming... but I guess you don't believe in that then...

That hasn't been a thing in years. They altered it to 'climate change', which makes more sense, since the climate is not static. Here in Hawaii, we had the coolest winter and spring in decades. Stop being such a gullible sheep.

The fact that you're mentioning what is happening with the weather locally and a single season (or even 'decades') show that you have no clue what you are talking about. Global Warming happens on the scale of centuries. Global Warming can lead to mini-ice ages locally (f.ex. in Europe).

Start educating yourself.

HEE-HAW! GLOBAL WARMING MAKES THINGS COLDER! You alarmists are a real hoot! There has been no appreciable warning in 20 years, which is why the alarmists now say 'climate change' instead of 'global warming'. Get with the program, Pops!

Tool

Harvard debate team captain.

Power-tool...

Turd-tapper.

You think if research and development that went into gas and oil had been focused on steam we’d be waiting two hours while the boiler heats up?

Yes. Electric cars are still a joke, and nobody wants them, except 'save the planet'-types that talk a lot about recycling.

I’d argue that tesla made electric cars “cool” and trendy, but that’s not even what i’m talking about, all i’m saying is, if the same R&D had gone into alternative powered vehicles, we’d have a gas or steam powered vehicle that’s just as effecient, if not more than the gas powered vehicles we have today.

Why not use up the gas? It's just sitting underground, doing nothing. New fields are found every day, there is plenty of it.

I’m not making a comment for or against the use of gas as i’m not entirely informed on the subject. I mean obviously they’ve taught me that it’s causing global warming and that it’s a very limited resource but obviously most of us here don’t trust what “they” tell us. All i’m sayin is. It’s silly to think alternative fuel powered vehicles wouldn’t be the same or on par with the gas powered vehicles we have today if the same amount of money and research was thrown at them.

Car companies want to make money now. Give them, or anyone, a profitable reason to switch how they make money and they will.

great post

| mid 1990s there was a shift to 17,19,20 and 22 inch wheels. 13s,14s,15, and 16s were all but eliminated. 

This is when the media / music / movie campaign started to make big rims like 22's fashionable. People are such shrep for marketing.

America was in the middle of a bubble, people were spending like no tomorrow and people have not returned to any sort of frugality since. People buy wildly impractical cars with bad gas mileage and reliability that they cannot afford.

SUVs and CUVs are just one such example. This is true across the board. Phones are designed around flashy features instead of durability and usability. Electronics are increasingly made to be disposable and unfix-able. A whole generation treats shopping as a form of entertainment.

This consumer culture keeps the top rich with increasing sales and the bottom from accumulating wealth. You can blame average people but remember, relentless adds, media and music brain wash people from before they can speak to consumerism.

I remember back during the suv craze started in the ninties.

One of the thoughts that popped into my mind then was " He is gonna shit a brick when he has to replace the tires."

Phones are designed around flashy features instead of durability and usability. Electronics are increasingly made to be disposable and unfix-able. A whole generation treats shopping as a form of entertainment.

Keep in mind though, this is also exactly what allows the poorest American's to own flat screen televisions and smart phones. Same reason why this technology is also being spread to third world countries. It's how progress happens.

True. The cost of consumer goods has fallen significantly. However, most smart phones don't need to be replaced every 2 years but somehow that has become the expectation.

Also, the cost of ownership for many devices and goods never crosses people minds. This is most obvious with cars where people don't even begin to think about reliability, or maintenance.

The focus on looks, and other superficial indicators rather than the utility from the good.

I thought black people made big rims fashionable. TIL

Think about why the corporate media pushes black gangsters as fashion leaders.

It was not uncommon at the time to drive through a black neighborhood and see a kid driving a $400 caravan with $2000 spinners.

It was a status symbol.

There are also 'rent to own' rim stores in really poor neighberhoods.

True, yet the downvotes roll in..

I do car reviews for a few magazines in my country. We test drove the new Porsche Cayenne last week. It comes with 21" inch tyres that last 40,000km and cost $1000 a corner to replace. That's basically $4k every 2 years on tyres alone. You couldn't even for a noodle in that tread let alone trust it anywhere that wasn't perfectly paved.

Excellent write up! A modern day retelling of the Phoebus Cartel

Non-Mobile link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

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I had the same exact thought while reading this.

The problem with the argument that capitalism leads to innovation is that at some point, the technology has squeezed all the efficiency out of a system. At that point, in order to continue to make the same or greater profits, a corporation either has to transition into selling luxury items (conspicuous consumption), or produce less-than-ideal products (planned obsolescence).

Its much darker than your college economics book.

So whats next? What is the ultimate market system? Information? Skill? Proof of work? Something codable? What happens when Mrs. Jones has a networked AI? Or better she has a network of whole brain ems?

What's next is a planned economy. Mr. Marx wrote a somewhat popular book about it back in the day...

Planned in the same way a McDonalds hamburger is exactly the same no matter where you buy one?

No. Planned in the way that we, as a society, don't really need 20 identical toothpastes in the supermarket... and we don't need 2-3 mega-corps colluding on price-fixing and making products planned to break.

Fun fact: I’m reading this taking a shit in a Goodyear shop while my oil gets changed

Burn the place down

Brown fire

Upper decker

Take their women and children

Fuck waiting for have oil changed. You wait for over an hour. I go to the drive thru stations. You stay in the car and you're out in 10 minutes.

I didn’t even know a drive thru station was a thing, however I don’t mind waiting. Usually just bring my laptop and get work done.

Valvoline runs a bunch. In sure you have local chains also

With tires, I’ve always thought the rule of thumb was: performance, longevity, cost...pick one.

I for one, am glad that tires have become more performance oriented. Street tires today are as good as or better than racing slicks were 2 decades ago. And that makes driving a modern sports car amazingly fun.

But yeah, corporations are always looking to optimize profits and cut out their competition, and they’re very willing to conspire to do it. Whether it’s National City Lines tearing out trolly tracks or the auto manufacturers cheating the EPA test cycle for fuel efficiency and emissions. If there’s a buck to be made, they’ll stop at nothing.

Thing is, they could still offer performance tires to people that want them and have cats that warrant them, while still offering higher safety and durability tires for those who want it (like me).

It's an interesting thought, but not true in reality. I was in the business back then and this is most certainly not what happened with the ATX. I was there. I saw them come off the vehicles and the conditions they were in. Additionally, your knowledge of speed ratings is wiki-quality at best. You are thinking along the right lines, but drawing conclusions that aren't accurate. Now, I'm not going to spend my time elaborating, but let's say that 20+ years in the auto industry and previous certifications to with it would back me up. No, I'm not going to discuss it further.

Now, as far as the TireHub/ ATD/ etc... situation, yes, that is very concerning. It's the same as in most industries when consolidation creates a Big 3-5 companies. It should be interesting to see what happens in the next few years. Suffice to say that National Accounts aren't a big % of the customers walking in my door, so until then...

I disagree on the ATD part of it. They, when I was in the industry, had a terrible business model. I think if they fail, it will because of this business model not outside forces.

IIRC the people responsible did have to pay fines due to anti-trust laws, but the money they made far outweighed any penalties they paid.

Also, this was the underlying conflict in the hit movie Who Framed Roger Rabbit which I intend to rewatch tonight.

All I know is that /r/Tiresaretheenemy

At least we have a real conspiracy post here. Thank you for sharing!

great post and makes a lot of sense .. planned obsolescence

Bottom line, corporations are shitty and more interested in rent-seeking than innovation.

I was told my 2017 explorer needs new tires with 10000 miles on them. I was just thinking what happened to tire warranties of 75000-100000 miles. You answered that question.

I think a better question to ask is:

• Of the remaining tire manufacturers, who makes products that last?
• What are the best product lines for tire longevity?

I have some nexen tires with an 80000 mile warranty. So

Yeah i hear ya. I think you just need to wade through the shit and buy good tires. I had 30k miles before i needed to buy new ones for a nissan. The new yokohomas lasted nearly 75k miles for $400 total.

Have nexens now on a truck. 45k miles and just about half way done with them.

The Sumic gt50's I have are up around 60k miles and look like they could go another 25k or so.

They were rated for 40k. And only cost $200.00 for four tires.

Yokohama.

I’m sure op can confirm or deny. But I’ve been told the OE tire grime the factory use low grade rubber in the same mold as non OE tires.

So if you buy a truck with OE Goodyear wranglers. You might get 20-30,000 mile out of them. When they’re worn and you go and get a non OE set of GY wranglers from a tire shop you’ll get 75-80,000 out of them. Same mold different compound.

Why you might ask? So you’re guaranteed to have to buy a set of tires during your lease or if you’re the first owner of a car and most people will just say “put what’s on there” and never think twice.

Awesome little TIL thank you

What do you see happening to tire "re-treading" companies?

you should be able to tell for yourself when you require a new tire dude

I know how to check tires and yes after 10000 miles there is significant wear on the tread. Compared to the Bridgestone on my 99 with 40000 on the tires it’s sad.

Who told you that you needed tires? Go to your dealer because the Yokohama tires installed from factory have an extended warranty for premature tread wear and should be replaced for free

I miss spoke they told me I should start looking at new tires. Which tells me these tires are only good for about 20000. Still that’s pathetic.

That was way more interesting than i ever expected. Great post!

Great post. A real conspiracy in r/conspiracy.

Thanks for keeping it so short

We of course cannot expect our congress to care about this. This is one of many near monopolies we have. Consumer protections are way at the bottom of their interests.

And lobbying by big biz at the top!

Toyota put 30k mile rated tires on my Scion out of the factory that we're more expensive than their 70k mile counterpart.

I have a couple notes on this

It was the Wilderness AT and the Radial ATX/ATX2. The longevity of the ATX was due to the rubber hardening with heat cycles, similar to some of the more recent Michelin tires. The side effect of that is a dramatic loss of wet traction. This isn’t a conspiracy, it’s a side effect that had other side effects that were not good.

There were never mileage guarantees, just mileage warranties. They are the same today and basically the same as fuel mileage ratings, actual results may vary.

The conspiracy you mentioned about buying up rail and trolley etc is not conspiracy. It’s business and historical fact, no conspiracy about it at all.

The only conspiracy is that of Ford’s corporate decision to push literal family (Firestone) under the bus with the recall.

Source nearly 20 years (in the past) with Bridgestone/Firestone in most of the levels of technician/management during the Ford recall.

I wasn’t aware of the tirehub info however. Thank you for that.

Google: "General Motors streetcar conspiracy" I think you might not be familiar with the consensus definition of conspiracy.

OP: What about companies like Hankook and Cooper? Would they fall into this as well?

When the old man dies its game over. But they'll still blame it on the founder (Disney for example.)

Good post.

So what is the best 235/65SR18? I need tires and of course I am broke. Is there an off brand that is better than the others.

When I was broke I always bought used tires at about 50%-70% life they normally go for 10-30% of new tires.

Ever seen The Founder?

This was really interesting, I've worked for Bridgestone for 2.5 years and didn't know this back story. Tire Hub certainly an interesting venture for us. Wonder if we know each other!

On my semi truck I got 175k miles out of the steer tires and still going on the drives. Should be getting at least 250k out of the drive tires if I got them rotated. The tires cost around $450 a piece and have a lot more rubber than a car tire. I think it's more than possible to make a car tire that would last 200k miles for around $200 a piece. But most people live paycheck to paycheck so of course they just want something that will get them by- cheap China tires.

I think this tire conspiracy theory is more about supply and demand. If the demand for longer lasting tires was there then the supply would eventually match.

Dude people would pay a premium for lifetime tires in a heartbeat if they were commercially available

Great post thanks

OP basically blows right past a main issue in all this. He mentioned that steel belted radials rust and cause separation. But he doesn't get into the fact that steel belted radials were all just a big consumer gimmic in the first place.

When they appeared on the scene they sold like hot cakes. So much so that the producers simply stopped making the poly cord belted tires cause they wouldn't sell.

I know as I was working in my fathers garage in the 70s and elsewhere in automotive since the 80s.

If you'll check you'll see truck and tractor trailers don't use steel belt. Neither does any construction equipment, of farming/ agricultural, campers or trailers, , not the military, airplane industry, race cars or even standard street or off-road motorcycles or ATVs. Forklifts nothing. Poly cord wears better, doesnt rust and takes patches and plugs better.

Steel belts are a scam.

And OP, we've been plugging tire since the early 80s.

Want to add another thing OP has left out. Not all the rubber in your tire bolds air. The rubber that provides the airtight seal is a thin layer sprayed on the inside of the tire. This happens to be the more expensive type of rubber so they have been making this layer thinner and thinner over the years to save $. As and old guy I'll tell you, back in the day, you didn't have to keep filling your tires as often as you do now. This air is bleeding right through the tire and this air contains moisture. This moisture causes the corrosion of the steel belt, causing it to start separating from the tire.

Back when I was young you almost never saw belts separating unless it was due to some physical damage done to the tire. Since about 2000 it's becoming a common issue, and the belt separating at highway speed has led to some serious accidents.

Tractor trailers use steel belted radials. There are still some that don’t like the trailers that haul sea containers but most do and have since the mid 90’s.

Construction equipment comes with both bias and radial tires depending on manufacturers.

Ag tires also come in both flavors once you get up to a certain size. The smaller ones like 11.2-24 and the implement tires are bias ply.

Race cars depending on the particular sport, use radials. Granted drag racing still uses bias ply with a tube because it is what works best for that sport.

Sport bikes come from the factory with radial tires and I honestly don’t know about modern cruisers but my guess is probably radials as well.

Radials are popular in all classes of vehicles that I’ve ever dealt with.

Source: I was a tire wholesaler for 7 years.

I work for Michelin, can confirm most of this, and lifetime tires get even longer now with retreading programs. But from a company stand point, a lot of these tire places just want to compete , not put communities and other people out of business, it’s a weird ecosystem .

I have to get new tires for a 2000 camry. Can you give me advice?

Get either Michelin’s or bridge stones . Avoid fire stones . Good years are decent . If you’re in a seasonal area 4 summers 4 winters , if not rain-x tires.

The early Los Angeles transit system is a good example.

Are you Tyler Durden?

I was literally talking with a coworker about this today. We were discussing the tire pressure issue and everything. Before today I've never talked about this with anyone because it happened when I was a young kid and never gave it any thought. And now I see this post. I'm officially creeped out.

Maybe you should start a tire company

Maybe you should remember to pack your lunch

this is an awesome post, very interesting

imagine a car with immortal tires that got 100+ mpg? We could have had that if not for greed

Wow. Great post. I can’t believe one here is exactly in my wheelhouse.

Other comments.

Once Michelin dumps ATD, they are done for. I’m sure it will happen in the very near future. BGFS dropping them took about 3 weeks longer than I thought.

Also with Michelin/TWW/TBC/Carroll Tire coming together is just like TireHub as well.

And also, as others pointed out, the style factor had/has a lot to do with increasing rim sizes. I can’t imagine being on the retail size when you tell someone the tires on your special edition Camaro, that happen to be staggered 21”s will be about $2600. Lol 😝

God I hated dealing with TBC. They were the worst company I had to deal with regarding adjustments. That statement is including the Chinese companies and Federal tire.

I agree that ATD is not long for this world.

Oh really ? I’ve had an easy time on adjustments with them, no need to even send in tires, and can get a credit.

Yes, hell with the evil empire, I.e. ATD heheh

This was 6 years ago when I left the industry. It seemed like every plant had a different form and what they wanted as documentation.

Oh gotcha 👍🏻

That was fucking mindblowing! Great post OP! This is something I have/would never of heard of or thought to research.

I'm pretty sure the whole Firestone thing was due to having a design flaw in the side walls of the tires. The issue arose due to drivers who found themselves swerving for some reason would have blowouts causing an even worse accident.

One day aliens will find us and wonder what the fuck we’re doing stunting technological/manufacturing improvements that better human civilization in order to let businesses survive

This is wrong, we largely tolerate manufactured obsolescence to bolster the bottom end of already hugely profitable multinationals, who in a truly capitalistic market should be at each other's throats making increasingly reliable and long lasting products. It's widely accepted that car dealers make more money on maintenance than sales, and that's why cars that are actually engineered to take long lasting abuse are prohibitively inexpensive to the general public ( land cruiser for example)

You answered some questions I was wondering, especially about over engineering. I just bought a '15 vehicle and it had new tires put on it (certified pre-owned) and I was amazed to see they are Firestone's with* Carbon Fiber. *

Why does my little Suv that will never see over 80 mph need military grade carbon fiber reinforced sidewalls? I'd rather have like you said, lifetime tires. Instead I have tires than can handle speeds it's not legal anywhere to even run, and heat levels that I'll probably never hit half of the threshold.

PS, Fuck Kumho tires, cheap pieces of shit

What I write above is not a conspiracy.

You mean it's not a theory. A confirmed conspiracy theory is a conspiracy.

That lifetime technology never saw the light of day. Instead resources went into performance tires. In the mid 1990s there was a shift to 17,19,20 and 22 inch wheels. 13s,14s,15, and 16s were all but eliminated.

I've never understood the trend toward lower profile tire sizes. I get the idea behind perfomance advantages of a stiff narrow sidewall but the fact is a Honda S2000, which would still outhandle many cars produced today, could get by on 50 series rubber in 205 -215 mm section width on 16-17" wheels. Today 50 series aspect ratios are considered to be a truck tire.

And where did the idea come from that massive wheels any tiny sidewall heights look sporty. These wheels and tires are easily destroyed by potholes and imo don't grip that much better than the higher profile rubber on a 20 year old s2k or Honda Prelude did.

Agreed, they just want you to buy a new expensive wheel and replace tires every time you hit a pothole on America's increasingly unmaintained roadways. Good business model imo

Maybe there's a market niche now for long life tires for passenger cars. I'd buy some.

It's not a niche, consumers would hands down pay a premium for a tire that lasts the lifetime of the car. What surprises me is that small companies like nitto, Yokohama etc aren't capitalizing and selling the public these tires

I dunno, it seems like people mostly like their oversize short life tires. If you look at cars as well, there's no clamor for super efficient cars and trucks. Consumers just mostly don't seem to care, so I thought it's more of a niche market.

Nitto is owned by Toyo which sells high mileage tires. Nitto is more of a specialty / gimmick brand to be honest

A ton.

Sounds like greed has gotten to the Michelin guy too :(

What I write above is not a conspiracy.

It certainly reads like one.

I knew it!!! You have no idea how relevant this post is for me, thank you so much for such a great write-up.

I just put new tires on my car last fall, and they are already trying to tell me that I'm close to needing new ones. The treads are definitely starting to look thin. I was furious. I suspected pretty much exactly what your post describes, but it was just on a hunch (based on knowledge from similar situations like the light bulb, etc.).

What do you recommend we do to protect ourselves from these companies? What you're describing sounds like textbook predatory pricing, which is already illegal.

Also, which tire brands are you a fan of currently? I have to get new ones soon, and I'd like to support a company that isn't a piece of shit like Bridgestone/Firestone or Goodyear.

This is what the Koch brothers are doing to Mass Transit around the country right now. They have only spent a couple of million to kill, I think, close to 15 mass transit plans for cities across the country. They just came through Nashville. They did it with a few volunteers and $700k. They disguise it as a company that is against raising taxes. That part is what gives them away. If was really about keeping taxes low, why wouldn't they send them across the country to all cities? Instead, they only send them to cities with mass transit plans going to vote. Mass transit would hurt the bottom line of Koch Industries. It has nothing to do with taxes for these cities.

While I am not for raising taxes, especially for a estimated $10B mass transit plan, I am against these corporations being able to come through, disguised as something different and change peoples minds on something based on a lie. They are out-of-state special interest groups with little oversight and should not have the ability to interrupt a democratic process to further their monetary goals.

James Corbett talks about this and how companies for half a century have tried to kill public transport systems to maximize profits for the auto and oil industries.

Well, the Koch Bros have perfected it. They actually get people to volunteer to do their dirty work for them. They get them to knock on doors, very specific doors and call as well. They get those doors/numbers from their extremely detailed data points on who to target. They are also ramping up a smear campaign against electric cars.

OP this is an awesome post. It's different from the usual stuff we've been getting here lately, and is a welcome change.

Kudos to you, sir.

ATD bought the company I worked for in Canada and basically ruined it. The companies service and reputation went down the toilet basically as soon as ATD stepped in. Terribly managed, almost unbelievably so.

Now it looks like they might have to file for bankruptcy.

God I hated dealing with TBC. They were the worst company I had to deal with regarding adjustments. That statement is including the Chinese companies and Federal tire.

I agree that ATD is not long for this world.

That hasn't been a thing in years. They altered it to 'climate change', which makes more sense, since the climate is not static. Here in Hawaii, we had the coolest winter and spring in decades. Stop being such a gullible sheep.