You did leave out the most important aspect of these ruins.

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/sr4f65a63f.jpg

These are referred to as "staples". They are recesses in adjoining stones where a poured metal link was plased to hold the structures together. The sediment in them has traces of rust and other evidence to support that. This was made by people who were not even credited with the use of metal in any way, be it for tools or weapons. We have much to learn yet.

Probably some technologicaly advanced civilization that existed a long long time ago and was wiped out by some sudden changes on earth.. possibly a meteor impact.

I have a theory, if anyone wants to hear it.

Sure. Let's hear it

Well, I believe that we are in no way the first civilization to occupy the Earth, and by no means the most advanced. I believe that the Earth is much older than we are led to believe, and I believe civilization builds itself up over time until a cataclysmic event reduces the population greatly and basically resets progress. The enlightened people, the privileged, "illuminati" if you will, are aware of this cycle, because of information passed on by their forefathers. They are also presented with information on the ways to build up society, and the results of building up society in certain ways vs. others. All of this information was obtained thru trial and (not necessarily) error, in the many preceding civilizations. This information most likely includes how to set up economic systems, energy sources and benefits of running society through them, secrets of technology, and ways to manipulate the collective minds of the masses.

I believe that with each cataclysmic event, the powerful elite ride out the interim hunkered down in protective bunkers, and emerge whenever it is deemed safe to restart civilization. Perhaps the privileged families spend generations down there. But they keep with them the logs and knowledge of the many advanced civilizations before them, and therefore possess a leg up on others not privy to the knowledge.

Sorry I am rambling and I may have gotten off track, and I could go on, but you probably stopped reading long ago anyway.

No I read it. I believe you are most likely correct. There where ancient civilizations with knowledge that was way beyond what they should have had. Example would be the samarians knew about all the planet's 6000 year's ago. So either this info came from ancient visitors or an older culture...... Or both.

Science Fiction and theory are two very different words.

Ok. So aliens, then?

Who repopulates the civilization then, the elite? Wouldn't that make all of us the 'elite' then?

Maybe not this time around ;)

The popular notion is that the illuminati are the 'elites' and they have gotten there through privilege, when it's more a case of attaining privilege by being one of the illuminated that survive the turmoil and being in a position to build civilisation to suit/benefit them.

No I read it. I believe you are most likely correct. There where ancient civilizations with knowledge that was way beyond what they should have had. Example would be the samarians knew about all the planet's 6000 year's ago. So either this info came from ancient visitors or an older culture...... Or both.

Well put.

I have thought this for a while. Well said

This is more or less correct.

History repeats itself. As a species we want to see what would happen if... It has led to great advances, but it could also be our downfall. Just look at the Atom bomb.

If there is a cycle, then we should start looking at ways to stop the cycle. Otherwise billions of people will die. It might be war or a mutating virus that is able to outsmart scientist. The world is full, but we still breed.

Maybe the rich want a new start. There are too many "slaves" and not enough for them to do. Technology is taking jobs left and right. Too many jobless, homeless and angry people will cause major problems.

The rich could be loosing control.

Go on...

In terms of what their culture was like? No, sadly it is all still conjecture. The European conquering of the new world as well as the ancient wars before then erased cultures who had little to no written language to keep record of their societies. A great book I can recommend it titled "1491" it is the most up to date compilation of knowledge of the pre Columbus Americas directed toward a beginners audience. There are many more discoveries on smaller scales than this that are mystifying archeology.

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What drives us mad is that they did indeed lack metal weapons of any type as well as tools that we have found. Some speculate that as a culture they determined that the mastery of metal was a negative advancement and prohibited its use. They may have had their first war with bronze blades or iron arrow heads and saw the brutal efficiency of it and turned their back on a tech that brings such destruction.

That sounds far fetched. Has any group of humans ever rescinded an empowering technology ever in the entire known history of mankind? Not to mention nonviolent uses which no logical being would ever refuse to use.

That is the point. It is why it is such a hard concept to understand coming from European or Asian culture. We were more aggressive in a way. The fact however is that there is evidence of the use of metal tools but no evidence of the tools themselves. There must be a reason why.

Has any group of humans ever rescinded an empowering technology ever in the entire known history of mankind?

The clampdown of peer-to-peer filesharing, the blocking of Napster, The Pirate Bay etc?

The banning of blood transfusions by Jehova's Witnesses?

Stem cell research?

Those are subtle and modern technologies that have at best minor effects on the survivability of the group of humans. I mean real life changing technology like refined metals, animal labor, plant cultivation, medicine, the wheel. To my knowledge no group of humans has ever turned down metal tools or gardening.

The Amish not using electricity is probably the closest example, but still proves my point. They are a fringe group of people within and supported by the rest of the US (they don't smelt their own metal ore), and their refusal to use electricity is only partial, not complete. They do have occasional uses of it such as telephones, and motorized manufacturing equipment.

I believe the Aztecs knew about the wheel, as they used it in children's toys, but they never used it seriously. I agree that this kind of thing is rare.

That's a good example, although I wonder if it was purposeful or just the though of larger wheels escaped them.

Has any group of humans ever rescinded an empowering technology ever in the entire known history of mankind?

We do that. Not often, but it happens. Nuclear power is one such case. We have had the means for clean, reliable, scalable, cheap power for 60+ years. What do we do? Refuse to build more and continue to run the early custom prototypes for decades after their design life.

What could it be

Ignorant image macro replies really do not belong here

Shame that people always jump to conclusions.

I actually attended Giorgio Tsoukalos' conference in Chicago the other day, and Puma Punku is one of this central topics. I know you don't want to poison the well by bringing Ancient Aliens into it but given the fantastic nature of the site, it is just as plausible an explanation as any.

Some of his points: - The official carbon dating of 500 AD is pretty much absurd. The stonework is obviously much older than that. Due to the fact that you need organic material for carbon dating, the use of a skeletal fragment for aging purposes means nothing - there could have simply been other people living on the site well after it was constructed. He maintains that it is around 28,000 years old but admits they won't know until somebody funds a procedure to actually date the stones. - The extremely high elevation means no trees were anywhere nearby to use as rollers for the slabs. And even if there were trees, the logs would be crushed under the sheer force of the 200 ton slabs - The stones were cut almost perfectly smooth. Given the hardness of a rock only a diamond would be able to do this. They debunked the involvement of lasers as they tested it on the rock and it was unable to cut it as cleanly as they are cut at the site. - It would be extremely difficult to do this even with today's technology and that is with the use of pretty heavy machinery.
- The Aymara that supposedly inhabited the area claim that they did not build the sites. I can't remember if they claim it was gods or somebody before them.

All of those points were from his lecture. I planned to do more research into it but I saw this post and thought I'd chime in. Either way you're right, i definitely don't believe that a tribe of Aymara did this 1500 years ago.

No problem! I tried to put it in a bullet list format but that failed miserably. I followed the styling guide too :(

But you're 100% correct. Whatever the theories are, there are plenty of these cases that we can't explain, and they definitely should not be ignored.

Just fyi: each one of your hyphens needs to be on a new line, at the start of the line, then the list will work.

- this is what it should look like when you type it out

• this is what it will look like when your post is formatted.

We dont have the tech to date the stone structures at Puma Punku. But, did you know Iraq is named after Arrakis the star ?

Or that the Swastika is a star map of Alpha Draconis ?

Look up star maps and ancient temples and you'll see the picture more clearly. You wont solve the puzzle by looking at the individual sites, because the clues are spread all over the planet. And pretty obvious.

"Arrakis" is the planet from Frank Herbert's Dune and was named after Iraq, not the other way around.

Alpha Draconis is a single star system. What does a starmap of a single star look like?

you are ruining everything with your knowledge and smarts!

An intra-system chart might have planetary and other object position data and orbital tracks, dust cloud and asteroid belt position and make-up, electromagnetic and other radiation gradients, inclination and declination of object orbital paths, alignment of the star's zenith and nadir points with the galactic plane. Solar systems have a lot of crud in them.

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Sure, but that's not a "star" map, and it sure as hell wouldn't look like a swastika.

Didn't read that part. That's just sorta silly.

"Arrakis" is the planet from Frank Herbert's Dune and was named after Iraq

Go back to your play pen.

Go back to your play pen.

Only if you draw me a star map of a single star, first.

Only if you draw me a star map of a single star, first.

Now dont wet the bed.

Mysterious Angkor Wat - Ancient Aliens Alpha Draconis Constellation

That enlightening video by "CH3MTRAILS" did not show me how to draw a star map of a single star. In fact, CH3TRAILS seems to think Alpha Draconis is a constellation, which isn't right at all.

Arrakis is a computer game ? You sure you know stars ?

Dune is a book, Arrakis is the anglicized Arabic name of a star having nothing to do with the etymology of Iraq, Alpha Draconis still isn't a constellation and I'm still waiting on that starmap.

'The spice must flow'

Arrakis was named after Iraq ? Remember fool ?

Yes, in the book Dune the planet is called Arrakis. It's both a reference to the star and a play on "Iraq" given that the book draws inspiration from the conflict in the Middle East. The Arabic name for the star is actually Al-Raquis, while Iraq is "Al-Iraq". They are not related, etymologically.

Now, about that starmap, fool?

The Arabic name for the star is actually Al-Raquis, while Iraq is "Al-Iraq". They are not related, etymologically.

Selective reading much ?

"Mu Draconis is also known by its older name Alrakis,[1] [2] which is derived from name given to it in Arabic by Arabian stargazers, al-Rāqiṣ, "the Trotting Camel"[1][3] or "the Dancer."[2][3] This name is also sometimes spelled in the English as "Arrakis" or "Errakis."[3]"

Science fiction writer Frank Herbert chose Arrakis as the name of the primary planet in his famous Dune series of novels, aware that the word "Arrakis" is the transliteration into English of the Arabic words for "the dancer" (al-Raqis)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_Draconis

That... pretty much summarizes exactly what I just said. Raqis and Iraq are not related etymologically and Herbert was probably (note, citation needed) referencing it along with drawing an analogy to Iraq.

If you have evidence that Iraq is etymologically related to Raqis, go ahead and post it. I won't hold my breath, just like I won't hold my breath for your single-star star-map. I was so looking forward to it. I need it to get home, you see, to my reptillian family so we can all laugh at you.

"Al-Raquis" and now "Raqis" ? Or was it another tweak that you thought woudn't be noticed.

"Al" means "the". I dropped it for simplicity's sake from both Iraq and Raqis. The extra u was a spelling mistake. Whoops.

Now...

Starmap? Etymological evidence? Shit, man, back up your claim.

Spelling mistake, haha. Bye dunce. no pun intended.

Damnit necromanser! I need my starmap! Please!

"Arrakis is named after Iraq!!!"

Hush now baby baby don't you cry. Mama's gonna make all of your nightmares come true ...

Yeah, we can only get the dates with 1 percent margin of error.

Oh do inform me about this magical process to date STONES.

here's the thing about crazy precise stonework like that, when we look at it we think it must have required crazy good tools but actually that was likely one or more people's life's work. They were probably trained by someone else who had the knowledge of generations of stone cutting to do this one thing.

So you think it's a realistic hypothesis that someones life work is one single brick for a building. Would you want that to be your life's work? Your argument makes no sense.

It's impossible to create blocks as precise as Puma without extreme high tech beyond what we have now even. They are prefab blocks all exactly the same size measured to 1000th of an inch, impossible without a machine, the natives even told us that the gods made it..

no i wouldn't want that to be my life work and neither did they, they were slaves.

the theory of ancient aliens isn't poison in any well, but the tv show by that name sure is

Who ever did that had better stone cutting tools than we do today (at least outside of military labs ...). But that IMHO doesn't prove in any way alien involvement, ppl in ancient times were probably a few percent smarter than us.

Who ever did that had better stone cutting tools than we do today (at least outside of military labs ...).

As someone who's done some basic stone-carving work, I would LOVE to see how you would support that argument.

Agreed. While the work on the ancient city is amazing, I am quite sure we have some bad ass stone cutting methods.

So, just saying, you're comparing some theoretical better stone carving tools to robots in a controlled lab? Don't really think that is too fair.

It's not like we're taking that robot carver to work sites to create buildings.

My theory is that there were civilizations long before the recorded history, that were as advanced as we are (if not more advanced).... and for some reasons they were no more... and we find what's left of them and scratch our heads. Just imagine, if an earth changing cataclysm destroys our civilization, our scientific advances would disappear for ever. A future civilization that will rise from the survivors would not understand our ruins... and in few thousands of years, gues what would be left? Probably the Pyramid of Cheops, Puma punku and few other ancient ruins. Almost nothing would be left from us. Also, keep in mind, a future civilization that rises from our ashes would have hard time getting to the level we are. There are no more metals and minerals left that are easy to mine for. Same for oil, they won't be able to get to it. Anyway, I truly believe that there is more to ancient history than the official history text books teaches us. I'm not saying that some know the truth and won't tell us, is just that the main stream Archaeology cover their ears and yell "lalalala, I can't hear you" when a fluke is presented. How many history professors would have to dismiss their own papers and publications if the official ancient time line proves to be wrong?

I know I've read and heard that when the Spanish arrived at Puma Punku and asked if the Incas if they built the structures, the Incas laughed and said that the stones had been there for thousands of years before

Also, scientists have discovered a cataclysm that could have wiped out these civilizations. There's evidence of a giant meteor shower that bombarded the earth somewhere between 12,000 and 13,000 years ago.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2158054/Scientists-discover-evidence-meteorite-storm-hit-Earth-13-000-years-ago-killed-prehistoric-civilisation.html

holy shit, how would our tech stop a fucking meteor shower? I don't think it could!

Isn't dailymail a bad source?

That's the way the story was told to me too, except the Incas pushed the Spanish General down the steps of the pyramid resulting in a bloody battle.

There are a few flaws in your assertions. As to ancient civilizations as if not more advanced than our own; Not likely in a sense. Those ancient structures are works of master craftsmen quite possibly using some methods we don't grasp. However, the build of the structures is chunky and without much grace. If they had been as advanced structures would be more delicate and sophisticated.

As to the future; There would be many many traces of us to be found. The 3 gorges damn, parts of the empire state building, the footings of large bridges like the Golden gate. As well asm many many other things. Metals will be available just in a different manner. They may not find ore and have to extract from veins of the stuff, but they will find piles and piles of it under the acumulated sediment. And finaly oil. Oil is renewable in terms of long time frames. Bio material will break down to create more oil for them.

I think that you should watch "Life After People". Most of the structures that you cite above would be completely obliterated after a few centuries. Concrete for instance is vulnerable to water erosion in a scale of 100-200 years. Actually ruins of medieval cathedrals and castles - which are made of actual stone - would likely survive for longer.

Concrete sure, but steel and other materials in buildings like powerplants? CERN? They will be outlived by stone?

You are too arrogant to see the obvious true. We can't cut stone efficiently! Think about the proposed long term human to Mars missions for example. They all include taking materials from Earth to build structures on Mars at astronomical costs. Why - coz we don't have the tools to cut stone outside of labs ... while these guys had such tools ...

We can cut stones quite well outside of labs actually. The Romans did some fine work. And I myself have dabbled in some stone masonry. We have carved sculptures out of marble that practically breathe. That is done with chisel hammer and time. I do not under rate ancient man. They did in fact do things we barely comprehend. Look into modern maize and how it is that they cultivated a plant that never existed in its current form in the wild. They created a plant!! We can't do that.

then how do they build tunnels?

Lots of dynamite.

I thought they had giant tunneling machines with many mechanical teeth that rotated around breaking/chipping away at the rock slowly.

In fact, I remember seeing a video of the completion ceremony with everyone cheering as one finally broke through the wall somewhere in Sweden or something. It was a few stories tall, huge piece of machinery.

My response was somewhat sarcastic, large earth movers are definitely involved. I don't claim to be a tunnel making expert, but I'm 98% sure that any smooth surfaces you see in a tunnel are concrete; it seems amazingly inefficient to cut the stone smoothly/that accurately.

Even if we could, do you think stone shelters on Mars will be of much use to us? We've also been stone cutting fairly proficiently for quite sometime - no labs required.

if you give a bored man decades and a chisel i think it's possible

Yeah that also accounts for them lifting and stacking hundred ton pieces of rock too.

How well do you think fine details on stone structures can withstand 15,000 years of nature?

Besides, Puma Pumku structures are fine, in a way. An experiment done in "Ancient Aliens" (yes, occasionaly they test some of their crazy hipothesis ;) showed that the rock cut observed in the ruins is better than what we obtain today with laser cutting, but not as good as what we get with diamond cutting.

fine details erode. but massive blocks take time.

Exactly.

I have no problem saying that people 1500 years ago would be able to do amazing things carving stone. I'd even wager that, given the right sort of socio-cultural environment, it would have been possible 15,000 years ago. Humans as a species have changed little in such a short time and we're functionally identical to those times.

To make the extraordinary claim that they used "technology that shouldn't have been arount at the time" would require extraordinary evidence - and straight line cuts in stone might not be one of them since that claim gets made about more sites than this one.

I think that if you want a serious answer to your questions you should post them to /r/askhistory or /r/askhistorians.

I'd go further and claim that people 15,000 were in fact more intelligent than us and that the conditions of the time encouraged levels of craftsmanship that we simply don't see today. They were not exposed to pervasive chemicals and pollution that infiltrate all aspects of modern life and cause such developmental neurological issues that we have come to accept as normal. Life was slower and less complex, with a limited set of specialized skills being developed and passed over generations. While population numbers may not have supported a diverse, advanced technological civilization in the modern sense, their intelligence would certainly have been applied towards advanced craftsmanship using the limited tools available.

Not to mention modern Western society wastes huge amounts of research on the creation of weapons and other forms of mass destruction, control devices. Capitalism also tends to curb or control technology that would help mankind but would not generate revenue for the company or corporation. (Petroleum industry is a good example of this)

If we put our resources and intellect into bettering the human condition who knows where we might be right now.

And exactly what this limited tools are?

You can't exactly do that with toothpicks now can you?

And remember that they didn't have our level of knowledge in physics. Unless they did which means it is a conspiracy anyway.

Inventiveness can only get you so far.

What are you even talking about lol

Frankly, I think its a little absurd to jump from "Look at how good these guys cut stone" to "They must have had electricity, complex machines, advanced medicine, internet, flight" or anything else we tend to consider modernly advanced. The only thing this is evidence for is that they had more advanced construction techniques than we tend to see in the ancient world. Perhaps they were more technologically advanced in other areas as well, but where is the evidence for that? Not to seem rude, but its not in these stones; its in your imagination.

If it's true that the quality of some of these ancient cuts are better than what we can achieve today, then they must have had complex machines and an advanced knowledge of something we don't. However, the only people I've heard the better-quality statement from is randoms on the interwebz. Does anybody reading this have good sources to support the claims?

My point is, how can you say that these people are on par with modern society? Clearly these people had something later people didn't, but I can't see how any of this indicates a society as advanced as modern society.

It's not about them being as advanced as modern society. It's that it was virtually impossible for them to build the things they did with their known technology of the time. Wherever you wanna go with it after that is up to you.

Who are you to say its impossible? You, and surely not many people, have no idea what kinds of techniques or tools they might have used to do this work.

I'm not saying they couldn't have built them. I'm saying they couldnt have built them with the known technology they had. Which means for them to have built them they would have had to have had a technology far more superior than we give them credit for. Which is pretty much the entire point of the whole original post.

Okay, but this isn't as special as you'd think. The Romans had some pretty sophisticated industrialization going on around their peak (a few hundred years before this place was built), and the concrete and roads they built are strong enough to survive today, the former of which we don't know how they made either.

The fact that this is in /r/conspiracy indicates to me (I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm not) that OP is implying that there was a society so advanced that there's some kind of conspiracy in place to cover up this advancement to stop people questioning the established historical story, or aliens, or something like that. I don't think this is evidence of anything like that.

That all being said, I'm ready and willing to accept that these people have much more advanced tools than we've traditionally given them credit for, but not much beyond that.

It could be that they dissolved the stones using some pulverized plant juice that was really acidic, or basic, as required.

Also, perhaps, plato's Atlantis is a time period. One that was, indeed, swallowed by the sea...

interesting that you say that about the plant juice. I remember reading about a bird that was observed rubbing leaves on a cliff face, then picking away at the softend rock gradually to create little burrows.

thank you, many interesting links that I didn't know about

Try posting this to r/skeptic to get more contrasting opinions?

The Greeks built the Parthenon 1000 years earlier than the structures OP talks about. The parthenon being more sophisticated and complicated with advanced curves and what not.

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Giza powerplant by Dunn!

the Giza Death star haha, awesome!

im wondering if they didnt find a method of optical multiplexing. connecting to the laser/maser and adding their message. decode at the other end, and you could communicate analgously

Look where our society is going today. Greener, renewable, recyclable. In a few decades, we will probably be combing through the landfills to filter out and reuse the raw materials, not because it's cheaper, but because we want to undo the damage. New products are increasingly made of lighter, thinner and biodegradable or recyclable materials. Dispose them and over time, nothing will be left.

Someone else mentioned in this thread that modern buildings erode over a couple hundred years and they are right. They would crumble, fall, rust and get buried. If you found one in ten thousand years, you'd have echoes of footprints and streets only. If you had a fundamental belief that people of this time were primitive, how would you explain that? Temples? There are only a few in the center of most cities.

Look at our computers and data storage... smaller scales means more fragile. How many people can rebuild a computer and access information if we have a catastrophe? How far back in technological capability would your community regress if you were cut off from the rest of the world for an extended period? Would you even have electricity? Could you melt steel? I can build computers out of parts, but I don't know how to print an LCD or etch a silicon wafer.

An advanced society, where every tech center is dependent upon cheap energy to move their supply chain from other tech centers, is fragile.

Thrown in a significant event that wipes out 50% or more of the population and the network fails, the electrical grid fails, the parts stop moving, the fuel stops moving, the mines stop working, people go to survival mode and we're back in the stone age most places. All the poor agricultural regions and overpopulated zones experience massive secondary die-offs.

And the only artifacts that survive the next 10,000 years are those built by eccentrics that wanted to make something out of basalt.

you summed it up so well.

I personally do place some credibility in the ancient aliens theory, that being said however I am not willing to place every mysterious thing to it. There is a lot of questions to be asked about Puma Punku and not a lot of answers. One thing to bear in mind is that nothing made by human hands are ever the same...my biggest question is how they managed those intricate cuts and why? These are cuts that even today we would have difficulty with. If this were the mass work of humans..who were they, why and how. Why do we have no record?

It take it to /r/askhistorians... there are a few archeologist regulars there who could give you some insight.

I had the amazing opportunity to visit Puma Punk and the Tiwanaku complex.

The guide (who was Aymara) dismissed the notions of Ancient Aliens.

An interesting note is that the stones are slightly magnetic in portions of the complex.

Last summer around the 100th anniversary of the rediscovery of Machu Picchu.

We jumped off from Puno which required a 6 hour car ride to the border of Peru/Bolivia and then another 2 hour car ride...it would have been easier to use La Paz, Bolivia as the jumping off point.

The altitude didn't affect me too bad...they say to chew coca leafs to combat the altitude sickness.

There actually wasn't all that many tourists there. I think it has been only recently that Puma Punku and Tiwanaku have become "famous".

The guide himself was pretty dismissive about the whole ancient alien angle, so I didn't press for any other non-mainstream questions.

I do know of one theory that states Puma Punku used to be a harbor on the banks of Lake Titicaca, which the present day shoreline is now 20+ miles away from the complex.

The thing i really hate about the H pieces...when you discuss them people immediately say "they were poured into forms using cement". meanwhile NO evidence of any of this exists...including any traces of said forms, any trees to use to make said forms or the use of any type of cement

We have absolutely no clue about history haha

When you look at the timeline for homo sapiens you have basically full development at approx. 200,000 years ago. You have fairly extensive records going back approx. 8,000 years. You have just trace evidence going back approx. 60,000 years. Given the range of homo sapiens and the blank spots in the history it is likely that civilizations rose and fell without us having any inkling of them. If, say, a civilization rose and fell between 125,000 and 120,000 years ago, while it would have be equivalent in time to our recorded civilization, with perhaps corresponding complexity, this far out in time we would be left with very little evidence of it. Most structures that identify our civilization will be unrecognizable as such within 10,000 years and utterly obliterated after 50,000-100,000 years. The idea that there could have been great civilizations that rose and fell undetected by modern man is not a far out whacko idea. Many distinguished scientists have speculated on this. A large number of scientists actually hold this out as a probability. PS...there is really no need to reach out for aliens. This can all be explained quite logically without reaching out for the supernatural.

Many of our artifacts would be quite recognizable after 100,000 years.

for example...

A lamp, a spark-plug, rebar within a block of concrete, ...

The list is endless. It doesn't really matter that most artifacts would rust away to nothing. Many would not.

I do not think any of those would be recognizable after 100,000 years. I really do not think the list is very big of what would last.

http://www.ancientx.com/nm/anmviewer.asp?a=75

The Coso Artifact "While mineral hunting in the mountains of California near Olancha during the winter of 1961, Wallace Lane, Virginia Maxey and Mike Mikesell found a rock, among many others, that they thought was a geode - a good addition for their gem shop. Upon cutting it open, however, Mikesell found an object inside that seemed to be made of white porcelain. In the center was a shaft of shiny metal. Experts estimated that it should have taken about 500,000 years for this fossil-encrusted nodule to form, yet the object inside was obviously of sophisticated human manufacture. Further investigation revealed that the porcelain was surround by a hexagonal casing, and an x-ray revealed a tiny spring at one end. Some who have examined the evidence say it looks very much like a modern-day spark plug. How did it get inside a 500,000-year-old rock?"

I don't dispute that

You should read Erich Von Daniken's "Chariots of the Gods".

Joe Rogan has a plausible theory. (Egypt specific stuff starts at 5:50)

Here are two podcasts from the Joe Rogan Experience, one with Graham Hancok and the other with John Anthony West, great stuff!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygWxXphYRos

http://vimeo.com/43782219

I absolutely agree that we are missing a huge chunk of information about a highly technologically advanced civilization that lived anywhere from 12,000-30,000 BC.

Thank you for this. Puma Punku is a favorite site of mine.

There is also Göbekli Tepe

Which is the oldest known Advanced culture / archaeological site. 9000BC

and there are no stone tools anywhere on site, and it was carefully buried under sand by whomever abandoned the site so long ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

The ancient aliens episode on this site was excellent. I think it was the first season before they ran out of things to talk about and started doing stupid shit. You should give it a watch.

I love the Ancient Aliens angle, though the show reaches too far at times. Its important to have Open minded skeptics like myself to keep it real between the iwanna believers and the kneejerk naysayers. To the believers: keep an open mind, you have plenty of time to test your hypotheses. To instant naysayers, be like Sherlock Holmes and find proof to whittle down the possibilities, as long as you remember what ever explaination is left, no matter how absurd- must be the truth.

http://www.richardcassaro.com/suppressed-by-scholars-twin-ancient-cultures-on-opposite-sides-of-the-pacific

NOBODY CAN CONVINCE YOU OTHERWISE!

Ironically enough, pre-Columbian civilizations were supposed to be ignorant of the wheel (a long-standing belief by mainstream academia that is finally beginning to be overturned), yet they were capable of creating the following...?

Actually no the pre-Columbian culture was not ignorant of the wheel. Based on the links below they would have a concept of blocks and pulleys.

(http://www.precolumbianwheels.com/)

(http://www.atoda.com/amerindian/wheelle.php#theaxle)

Protheans

Upvoted because I'm watching the ME3 credits right now. And yes, the endings really are as terrible as I've heard.

this is on Ancient Aliens right now... Conspiracy?

Let me put my conspiracy hat on and say, it's likely all advanced ancient civilizations were propagated by the same group of advanced alien beings which is why there are many similarities between many of them.

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Carving it, okay great humans can do that. But I'm still puzzled as to how they lifted and placed the stones, the largest one weighs 131 tons. I guess a shit load of guys and llamas. Those poor llamas...

Wally Wallington Can Move Anything!

What kind of rock are they made of?

Plataforma Lítica and composed of red sandstone is what Wikipedia says.

This is the most enlightening article about it: http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/boliviapumapunka.htm

I was told it was made of some of the world's hardest material, but it so appears that it is pretty soft. Then again, I find it odd that it could have survived this long while being so well preserved with so much exposure to the elements for the last few thousand years.

They say that redstone is 2.35 on Mohs Hardness Scale, then I can't imagine how a structure like this one could be standing so well.

It's diorite, not redstone.

From wikipedia,

Diorite is an extremely hard rock, making it difficult to carve and work with. It is so hard that ancient civilizations (such as Ancient Egypt) used diorite balls to work granite. Its hardness, however, also allows it to be worked finely and take a high polish, and to provide a durable finished work.

Aha! Exactly, how could they use simple hand tools to cut into the rock. That shit is HARD

Puma Punku ruins are so perfect and well done that we would have trouble doing it right now, and for sure we won't waste our time, we would find a simpler solution... because doing it like they did it would be way too expensive and time consuming (even with our computer controled mills, CNC). Who in the right mind will think that something like that can be achieved with stone tools by people that - supposedly - didn't yet discover the wheel? The problem is that the mainstream archaeology doesn't look at anything that doesn't fit with the official story. Also, there is not just one rock, it's a lot of them, identical to each other. The pieces are made like... they came off a line in a factory. Open your mind and study for yourself.

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The OP blatantly discards any theory of aliens being responsible in his very first post. You are both in agreement.

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I said you were in agreement about the aliens thing. For fucks sake, you must just be looking for a fight.

So because I disagree with your assertion that I'm in agreement with the OP, I'm picking a fight? Or is it that I simply responded? In which case I suggest that this reply is not an initiation of war. ;)

I think the catch here is that we have found no evidence of metal tools at this site. Maybe I am wrong...

Small, soft rocks can easily be carved and put in place.

Megalithic hundred+ ton blocks of diorite with perfect grooves and drill-holes, far from any diorite quarry that appear to have been cut in mass-production style is far different than Ankgor Wat or Ayutthaya.

Give a bunch of people some stone tools, religious or other fanaticism, and a bunch of time, and they can make this. Stone carvings don't convince me of things like ancient astronauts and Atlantis type civilizations. Even metal casting can't do it for me. human ingenuity is fucking amazing. Being a native culture from the "new world" doesn't mean things like this are implausible.

If it can teach us anything, it's that modern society and technology aren't necessary for great feats. Cleverness is who we are, if we choose to exercise it.

Feel free to check out /r/ancientaliens

I think more laterally. Towers with interlocking pieces, windows etc. Staples help hold it together. Has anyone made the pieces out of wood and had a fiddle?

NEXT!

I think that if you look long enough, a star map of some sort will almost match with a location at some time. I think that this is possible using the tech of the time. A crapload of workers, a crapload of time, and you can do it like the eGyptians did the pyramid.

You think humans like us built the pyramids?

I actually believe there was a society much more advanced than ours living before the Flood. Although I don't believe it's aliens, I subscribe to the fallen angels/ nephilim theory. But I think it's pretty obvious that some ancient civilizations seem to have had the ability to build things that we can't today, it seems obvious that there are still missing pieces to the puzzle.

ancient civilization and still trying to find a place for biblical theories of God?

Wow

[deleted]

we are discussing huge plausibility of some significant civilization forgotten in the past, or possibly purposely forgotten, maybe connected to ancient aliens, and this individual is trying to set it within her scope of belief structure, timing the civilization before "the great flood"

Me, being open minded and open for discussion of facts and theories, vehemently reject all notion of the biblical scriptures being true, or even remotely factual based, and feel that someone suggesting otherwise is doing nothing more than writing stories or creating fan fiction.

I believe it's delusional, and discredits the legitimacy (if any) of this claim.

I'd prefer this forum be dedicated to facts.

The Bible is an ancient text that talks about historical places and events known to have existed, the Book of Enoch for example can be corroborated with ancient Sumerian tablets but the key is to not place so much importance in them yet draw from the anthropological theories that existed, the Book of Enoch has a different view of the Annunaki as the Sumerians and in this contrast I think something may be learnt.

You contradict yourself, you can't be open minded and open for discussion if you're not willing to discuss the theory that the Biblical account of history might be accurate. And since archeology has proven many historical accounts in the Bible to be accurate, you might be remiss in dismissing it without discussion.

I may have jumped the gun a tad, I'm sorry. I suppose it is possible to talk about the feasibility of a great flood happening without looking at it in a biblical nature.

After many long discussions and debates and books read, articles gone through, I've come to the conclusion that 89% of religious discussion is not logic or factually based but based on tricks lies and deception.

I appreciate that you recognize you might have rushed to judgment there, a tad. I also understand your position. I held it myself for awhile, so I get it. When you consider that the Bible is far from the only source that mentions a great flood, I think it's worth looking at all the sources to see what they have in common. At least as a contrast/ comparison sort of deal.

I don't agree with your assertions about religious discussions although I do believe there is a lot of misinformation around religions/beliefs. On all sides of the issue.

Depending on the source, the exact extent to sea level change is anywhere from 10 to 150 meters (30 to 450 feet). But one thing that is agreed upon is that it happened about 14,000-15,000 years ago.

We (science, historians, archeologist, etc..) call the time before this event "predulivian" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antediluvian) - Before the deluge

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/29/us-sea-level-ice-idUSBRE82R13E20120329

http://www.iodp.org/ice-sheet-collapse-and-sea-level-rise-at-the-b%C3%B8lling-warming-14600-years-ago

Talking snakes

Is that a serious suggestion? I'll talk it through with you if you'd like, I don't mind having a conversation.

You know the notion of a time period that has seen many floods is not solely found in the bible. Many ancient cultures around the world have flood stories. Keep in mind that 18000 years ago we were in the middle of an ice age, and that there its LOTS of evidence of the flooding as the glaciers receded. "The most recent glacial period peaked between 22,000 and 18,000 years ago. At its height, about 27 percent of the world's present land area was covered by ice (compared with 10.4 percent today). There were glaciers up to 10,000 feet (3,050 meters) thick over most of North America, northern Europe, and northern Asia, as well as the southern portions of South America, Australia, and Africa." "The large ice sheets locked up a lot of water. The sea level fell about 450 feet (137 meters) below what it is today and exposed large areas of land that are currently submerged, such as the Bering land bridge, which connected the eastern tip of Siberia with the western tip of Alaska." So while the fact that it's in the bible doesn't make it true, doesn't nessicarily make it entirely false either. Just sayin.

In my experiences I'm led to believe that certain parts of the bible are historically accurate.
Not that the flood or angels or anything is what I'm meaning, but who's to say.
I don't think you're open minded enough, buster.

I can be open minded enough to consider the possibility of Narnia, but that doesn't mean I'll give any legitimacy to someone who believes in angels.

Your loss. Do you believe in demons? such as the ones Aleister crowley purports to contact? Also, fuck yourself. :)

Angels, demons and God are fabrications of the human mind, created by man to explain the world, and to make sense of everything.

Our minds have an incredibly complex facial recognition system built in. Among other things, huge portions of our brain are hard wired to find and recognize patterns. Sometimes we experience hallucinations, and they can feel incredibly real, but they're not. Studies suggest that near death experiences and religious encounters might be linked to our bodies own production of the tryptamine dmt.

I've read stuff that theorizes that the story of "the flood" was actually referring to a great civilization that fell. And that a lot of stories in the bible reference stuff like that.

I suppose I'm not well versed in the more mainstream and generally accepted conspiracy theories.

I vaguely remember reading about several interesting conspiracy theories in a txt file I found on Napster/lime wire about a decade ago.

But then again, in addition to theorizing about a great flood on earth caused by the inversion of the magnetic polls and some object colliding with the moon, it discusses secret lizard people who live in a giant underground city underneath Portland or something, and how they shape shift and control world events.

It's kind of disconcerting that this isn't the first time I've heard this theory... It's pretty popular on YouTube but there's really no evidence to speak of.

Some dude took too much acid and begun seeing lizard people. Probably strung out from amphetamines as well, concocting crazy stories to explain the shit he saw.

Haha that's how I figured it came to be.

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I do believe that many biblical and religious texts that have been written by many cultures throughout the centuries were based or inspired by facts.

Star Gate SG1 was inspired by religious scriptures, stories and lore. If in 1000 years civilization finds a DVD player and a few episodes/seasons of the show, do you think they'd believe it's real?

We could only hope... Then people on reddit3000 could discuss it at length.

Me, being open minded and open for discussion of facts and theories

Open minded = good

, vehemently reject all notion of the biblical scriptures being true, or even remotely factual based

That doesn't sound very open minded

, and feel that someone suggesting otherwise is doing nothing more than writing stories or creating fan fiction.

Nope, not open minded at all.

Above all else, the bible is a history book. It is open to interpretation what it means, who or what the gods and other "divine" agents are, how to interpret the allegory and so forth, but it is indisputable that it is filled with observations from our distant ancestors.

I can tell from that response that you have no interest in a discussion.

"Sarcasm: the last refuge of modest and chaste-souled people when the privacy of their soul is coarsely and intrusively invaded." Dostoevsky, Fyodor

I have no interest in biblical discussion. I have an open mind for everything except that based on "faith". In sorry for jumping the gun.

The bible isn't based on faith. It is a book, whether you like that fact or not, it is a book. It is a book that has been in existence for about 1800 years if you use the later dates for texts. The Old testament is older by at least 300 years.

Just because the book covers historical, prophetic, and spiritual things does not mean you should rule it out entirely. That's just a bad idea. It's not what any historian or archaeologist, worth their salt, would do. It's illogical.

By no means do I subscribe to any religion, but I find the fact that these ancient text survive still both fascinating and noteworthy. It really irritates me how people who claim to be scientific thinkers so readily dispose of vast stores of old world knowledge without any critical thought, simply because they do not agree with the overall message. Always a treat to stumble upon like minded people.

Thanks for that. I agree, it is nice to run into other people that are willing to have a conversation. I like talking about things and hearing what other people think.

you kinda lost me with that psuedo-christian whackiness.

Yet another person who is unwilling to have a discussion but would rather depend on belittling someone who has a different view than they do. Basically your one sentence has made it clear that you don't value proper debate nor do you bother to seek out sources that differ from your beliefs/ opinions, which makes you a bad researcher.

"Listen to everyone, read everything; believe absolutely nothing unless you can prove it in your own right!" - Bill Cooper

you don't believe in interstellar or interdimensional travel, but you do believe in angels and the biblical flood. yeah, you're right, i'm unwilling to have a discussion with someone like you.

Then you're missing out on another perspective because of your own prejudices. I never said I didn't believe in interdimensional travel, I said that I don't believe aliens are the answer. I believe it's another kind of being. But I understand that you have preconceived notions that you are not willing to have challenged. Personally my beliefs are strong enough to allow for conversations and the entertainment of ideas/ theories that don't seem to agree with them. I like to be challenged, I'm not afraid of it.

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I've noticed that.

Hey nobody ever quoted Arthur C Clark third law ? (Basically : Any sufficiently advanced technology will look like magic -or religious- to those who does not understand it.) The same one who made the natives saw the first english/spanishs as "magic users" when they brought thunder sticks.

Maybe the so called "gods"/"angels"/whatev' in our primitive religions were just survivors of a older but destroyed civ'; trying to put us in track before dying of ? :) (just like assassin's creed scenario \o/)

ancient civilization and still trying to find a place for biblical theories of God?

Wow

holy shit, how would our tech stop a fucking meteor shower? I don't think it could!

My response was somewhat sarcastic, large earth movers are definitely involved. I don't claim to be a tunnel making expert, but I'm 98% sure that any smooth surfaces you see in a tunnel are concrete; it seems amazingly inefficient to cut the stone smoothly/that accurately.

My point is, how can you say that these people are on par with modern society? Clearly these people had something later people didn't, but I can't see how any of this indicates a society as advanced as modern society.

It could be that they dissolved the stones using some pulverized plant juice that was really acidic, or basic, as required.

Also, perhaps, plato's Atlantis is a time period. One that was, indeed, swallowed by the sea...

That's the way the story was told to me too, except the Incas pushed the Spanish General down the steps of the pyramid resulting in a bloody battle.

Isn't dailymail a bad source?

you are ruining everything with your knowledge and smarts!

"Arrakis" is the planet from Frank Herbert's Dune and was named after Iraq

Go back to your play pen.

An intra-system chart might have planetary and other object position data and orbital tracks, dust cloud and asteroid belt position and make-up, electromagnetic and other radiation gradients, inclination and declination of object orbital paths, alignment of the star's zenith and nadir points with the galactic plane. Solar systems have a lot of crud in them.

Arrakis is a computer game ? You sure you know stars ?

you kinda lost me with that psuedo-christian whackiness.

Yet another person who is unwilling to have a discussion but would rather depend on belittling someone who has a different view than they do. Basically your one sentence has made it clear that you don't value proper debate nor do you bother to seek out sources that differ from your beliefs/ opinions, which makes you a bad researcher.

"Listen to everyone, read everything; believe absolutely nothing unless you can prove it in your own right!" - Bill Cooper